4 ms·

A pseudonym system is ripe for abuse. I can certainly understand why Google would be adverse to implementing it. If not being able to use a pseudonym is a gam

by kevinh 15y ago

A pseudonym system is ripe for abuse. I can certainly understand why Google would be adverse to implementing it. If not being able to use a pseudonym is a gamebreaker for someone, they should not be using Google+. Side note: I respect jwz, but I can't take anyone who says "Fuck those guys, seriously" seriously.

bad_user 15y ago
Yeah, but this is Google. They should know better, especially considering how they are integrating Google+ in search results. Twitter does this much better. They allow people to be whatever/whomever they want. But in case YOUR identity is important to you and your following, then you can get your account verified: https://support.twitter.com/groups/31-twitter-basics/topics/111-features/articles/119135-about-verified-accounts https://support.twitter.com/groups/31-twitter-basics/topics/... Well, Twitter isn't providing this to the public anymore. Mostly because they are saying that the surest way to prove legitimacy is to link to your Twitter account from your website, or other properties. Isn't this so much better? It is better and I'll tell you why. This G+ policy won't stop bogus accounts because Google can't verify all the accounts created. But guess who'll get hurt - it won't be the spammers that sell viagra.
- kevinh 15y ago
  I disagree. Here's the scenario I envision with spammers on G+. Tell me if you see it differently because I could certainly be missing an angle. 1. Spammer signs up with fake name (something like John Smith) and either has no profile picture or some picture pulled off Google. 2. Spammer adds users to their circles. 3. Users see the circle request, but, since this is just some random person adding them, they don't reciprocate. In this interaction, spammers don't have an avenue of communication except via their username. If they could use a pseudonym, their username could be www.getcheapp1llz-ezi.ly, which would be as effective a way as ever to get people to go to their site. On a site like twitter, where usernames are not limited by any criteria that I'm aware of, the spammer would have the medium of username as a communication method. Now how much of this is relevant to modern times, where spammers are mainly working on SEO for spam websites? I don't know. For what it's worth, I know a few people on G+ who clearly have a pseudonym as their name and they haven't been banned yet.
  - bad_user 15y ago
    A strategy that will work much better for spammers (and I guarantee that you'll see it in action) is temporary identity theft: 1) spammer picks someone popular, signs-up with similar name + similar picture 2) spammer starts following the same people and some of those people will follow back 3) spammer starts spamming 4) Google notices and bans account after some time 5) repeat from step 1 Also, there are plenty of spammers on G+ already. Twitter is much more aggressive in dealing with spammers.
    - pak 15y ago
      You don't even need to pick somebody popular, although I suppose it might make certain things easier. If you pick a plausible name and an attractive-looking profile picture, after a few hundred requests to people in the same location, you will have plenty of followers. Perhaps bootstrap with relationships amongst your bots so your profile doesn't look conspicuously vacant. It's not only spammers that do this... guess what, law enforcement does it too. Social networks have not changed how gullible the average internet user is.
  - pak 15y ago
    So because a spammer could use a data field as a method of communication, we should screen every possible entry in that data field? Perhaps G+ should substitute all comment boxes with dropdown menus... Seriously, this has nothing to do with spam and everything to do with preserving real identities, which have more value to Google's expected future revenue model. Unverified usernames do not inevitably result in a site that is overrun by spam. Time-tested methods of downvoting, flagging, reporting, and semi-automated filtering can quickly dispatch such shell accounts. You only need to look to reddit for proof of this--a site where users sometimes employ their username as the punchline to the joke. That's right, a username can be an avenue of communication in itself that carries positive, non-spammy (and dare I say fun?) results. Another example: would @shitmydadsays have caught on fire the way it did if the account was named +Justin Halpern instead? I doubt it. The final obvious example: HN, which thankfully does not require "verified" identities. When I read discourses from Google like the OP's it reminds me how right moot is when he says that creativity is only preserved in a culture that values privacy and anonymity. When everybody is permanently attached to every action, nobody bothers to test the norms, and all that's left is consumption of "safe" content from centralized producers. Of course that's what Google and Facebook, being glorified advertising networks, actually want. Your anonymous account has no money to buy anything, no predictable real-world holdings or credit score or behavior, and therefore no value to an advertiser.
- a_a_r_o_n 15y ago
  "Yeah, but this is Google. They should know better," What should they know better? What's the downside to Google from any names policy they've stated or implemented since they started? None to their bottom line is my assumption. How does a few disgruntled hippies (I'm one) with non-Wasp names compare against the bottom line value of total information awareness?
  - throwaway64 15y ago
    most of the world, even most of the people on the internet have "Non-wasp" hippy names
joe_the_user 15y ago
A "real name system" is ripe for abuse. One can imagine everything from states starting demand people use them, corporations surveiling those who use them and people squatting and abusing the "real name" accounts of others.
- tomkarlo 15y ago
  First of all, we do have a "real name" system in use offline ("legal name"), and effectively online when it comes to anything credit-card linked as well. As for squatting, that only works if you assume the real names are enforced to be unique, which I don't think anyone has suggested will happen. The only group that does that (as far as I know) is SAG and similar unions.
marshray 15y ago
A pseudonym system is ripe for abuse. Systems are "ripe for abuse" in proportion to their expressive power. Consequently, any really great system will have this property. Google understood this when they went into the Gmail business and found a place where their analytic talent was well-employed. Google should focus on finding ways that they can contribute to others' success (their billions of users, current and potential) instead of trying to find ways to corral and leverage their users as part of a grand strategy.
Sanddancer 15y ago
I'm trans and am from an abusive family that has stalked and harassed me on more than one occasion. Being pseudonymous allows me to communicate with people who I do care about without worrying about being outed and/or stalked again.

by kevinh 15y ago

bad_user 15y ago

Yeah, but this is Google. They should know better, especially considering how they are integrating Google+ in search results. Twitter does this much better. They allow people to be whatever/whomever they want. But in case YOUR identity is important to you and your following, then you can get your account verified: https://support.twitter.com/groups/31-twitter-basics/topics/111-features/articles/119135-about-verified-accounts https://support.twitter.com/groups/31-twitter-basics/topics/... Well, Twitter isn't providing this to the public anymore. Mostly because they are saying that the surest way to prove legitimacy is to link to your Twitter account from your website, or other properties. Isn't this so much better? It is better and I'll tell you why. This G+ policy won't stop bogus accounts because Google can't verify all the accounts created. But guess who'll get hurt - it won't be the spammers that sell viagra.

kevinh 15y ago
I disagree. Here's the scenario I envision with spammers on G+. Tell me if you see it differently because I could certainly be missing an angle. 1. Spammer signs up with fake name (something like John Smith) and either has no profile picture or some picture pulled off Google. 2. Spammer adds users to their circles. 3. Users see the circle request, but, since this is just some random person adding them, they don't reciprocate. In this interaction, spammers don't have an avenue of communication except via their username. If they could use a pseudonym, their username could be www.getcheapp1llz-ezi.ly, which would be as effective a way as ever to get people to go to their site. On a site like twitter, where usernames are not limited by any criteria that I'm aware of, the spammer would have the medium of username as a communication method. Now how much of this is relevant to modern times, where spammers are mainly working on SEO for spam websites? I don't know. For what it's worth, I know a few people on G+ who clearly have a pseudonym as their name and they haven't been banned yet.
- bad_user 15y ago
  A strategy that will work much better for spammers (and I guarantee that you'll see it in action) is temporary identity theft: 1) spammer picks someone popular, signs-up with similar name + similar picture 2) spammer starts following the same people and some of those people will follow back 3) spammer starts spamming 4) Google notices and bans account after some time 5) repeat from step 1 Also, there are plenty of spammers on G+ already. Twitter is much more aggressive in dealing with spammers.
  - pak 15y ago
    You don't even need to pick somebody popular, although I suppose it might make certain things easier. If you pick a plausible name and an attractive-looking profile picture, after a few hundred requests to people in the same location, you will have plenty of followers. Perhaps bootstrap with relationships amongst your bots so your profile doesn't look conspicuously vacant. It's not only spammers that do this... guess what, law enforcement does it too. Social networks have not changed how gullible the average internet user is.
- pak 15y ago
  So because a spammer could use a data field as a method of communication, we should screen every possible entry in that data field? Perhaps G+ should substitute all comment boxes with dropdown menus... Seriously, this has nothing to do with spam and everything to do with preserving real identities, which have more value to Google's expected future revenue model. Unverified usernames do not inevitably result in a site that is overrun by spam. Time-tested methods of downvoting, flagging, reporting, and semi-automated filtering can quickly dispatch such shell accounts. You only need to look to reddit for proof of this--a site where users sometimes employ their username as the punchline to the joke. That's right, a username can be an avenue of communication in itself that carries positive, non-spammy (and dare I say fun?) results. Another example: would @shitmydadsays have caught on fire the way it did if the account was named +Justin Halpern instead? I doubt it. The final obvious example: HN, which thankfully does not require "verified" identities. When I read discourses from Google like the OP's it reminds me how right moot is when he says that creativity is only preserved in a culture that values privacy and anonymity. When everybody is permanently attached to every action, nobody bothers to test the norms, and all that's left is consumption of "safe" content from centralized producers. Of course that's what Google and Facebook, being glorified advertising networks, actually want. Your anonymous account has no money to buy anything, no predictable real-world holdings or credit score or behavior, and therefore no value to an advertiser.
a_a_r_o_n 15y ago
"Yeah, but this is Google. They should know better," What should they know better? What's the downside to Google from any names policy they've stated or implemented since they started? None to their bottom line is my assumption. How does a few disgruntled hippies (I'm one) with non-Wasp names compare against the bottom line value of total information awareness?
- throwaway64 15y ago
  most of the world, even most of the people on the internet have "Non-wasp" hippy names

joe_the_user 15y ago

A "real name system" is ripe for abuse. One can imagine everything from states starting demand people use them, corporations surveiling those who use them and people squatting and abusing the "real name" accounts of others.

tomkarlo 15y ago
First of all, we do have a "real name" system in use offline ("legal name"), and effectively online when it comes to anything credit-card linked as well. As for squatting, that only works if you assume the real names are enforced to be unique, which I don't think anyone has suggested will happen. The only group that does that (as far as I know) is SAG and similar unions.

marshray 15y ago

A pseudonym system is ripe for abuse. Systems are "ripe for abuse" in proportion to their expressive power. Consequently, any really great system will have this property. Google understood this when they went into the Gmail business and found a place where their analytic talent was well-employed. Google should focus on finding ways that they can contribute to others' success (their billions of users, current and potential) instead of trying to find ways to corral and leverage their users as part of a grand strategy.

Sanddancer 15y ago

I'm trans and am from an abusive family that has stalked and harassed me on more than one occasion. Being pseudonymous allows me to communicate with people who I do care about without worrying about being outed and/or stalked again.