5 ms·

Yup. You can see it everywhere. Everything is fancier and nicer than it used to be. Just check out a 20 year old car to see how basic they used to be. I got in

Yup. You can see it everywhere. Everything is fancier and nicer than it used to be. Just check out a 20 year old car to see how basic they used to be. I got in a new pickup truck yesterday and there were two switches for each heated seat. The back and the bottom could be controlled separately. This is much too fancy for my tastes, but that's how the economy is evolving.

dingusdew 4y ago
And here I just want an electric car with manual roll-up windows.
- bick_nyers 4y ago
  We skipped the analog part of electric cars and went straight to digital. As pretty as the touchscreens are, I want buttons and knobs.
  - parineum 4y ago
    Every car has a screen now because California mandated back up cameras in new cars. It's bad business not to turn that thing into a touch screen and move controls to it.
    - bick_nyers 4y ago
      Is the addition of a touch element to an LCD really that much cheaper than plastic buttons and knobs?
      - ghaff 4y ago
        The thing is that if you're going to put a video screen of any size (not sure what the actual backup camera requirements are), you're going to use it as a navigation system--probably with Apple Play or Google Play--which is probably going to be a non-negotiable requirement for a lot of people at that point so it's going to be a touch screen anyway. And that means a lot of buttons are going to just be additional cost at that point. I agree manufacturers don't have to dispense with most buttons because they can. My Honda Passport actually strikes a pretty good balance. It would also be nice to have better voice control but that's been a hard problem with voice assistants generally.
        parineum 4y ago
        This was exactly my point. I didn't mean to sound like I was happy with it but the lack of buttons is directly related to the presence of touch screens which is a result of the requirement to have the back up camera. I don't think the CA regulators would take back that requirement but you can definitely file this under "unintended consequences". In my last vehicle, I definitely chose one that had more buttons/dials than some of my other choices and it was a surprisingly high priority.
        ghaff 4y ago
        I'm not sure that the rules don't still allow the backup camera to display on the rearview mirror. (Don't see anything definitive on this.) In any case, most consumers really want an in-dash nav display (and other infotainment) at this point. But the backup camera requirement may have nudged things along a bit.
        parineum 4y ago
        > But the backup camera requirement may have nudged things along a bit. It _definitely_ had a major effect on the low end vehicles. It raised the floor more than it changed the ceiling.
        bick_nyers 4y ago
        The navigation system on some cars are so atrocious. Impressively slow and inputting addresses can be a huge pain. I feel like a Raspberry Pi would have an order of magnitude better performance on many cars I have seen. I haven't bought a car recently so I don't know what the landscape looks like, but I would think that even offering the possibility of a customization to have a more analog dashboard would be profitable. Even if you stick it behind a $1k upcharge I think you would see a surprising number of people opt for it. Doesn't need to replace the digital touchscreen in all cases necessarily, just be a secondary control mechanism. Of course I'm sure we would run into situations where the analog buttons are an interface to the digital control system, so if the digital part is slow, some people might try to navigate using analog buttons too quickly. The digital interface hides that detail by design, if the menu isn't yet loaded, neither are the buttons you can click.
    - wildrhythms 4y ago
      I think most people are OK with a backup camera as it's a purely visual aid (an output), but putting actual controls of any sort (an input) on a touch screen in a vehicle is a terrible idea.
    - FooBarBizBazz 4y ago
      They need backup cameras because they have lost all the glass so they can pass the crash tests against the other 2,000-lb landwhales who also can't see them.
      - FooBarBizBazz 4y ago
        My number "2,000 lbs" was way off. That's the weight of a Fiat Panda. For another data point, the Hummer H2 is 6,000 lbs. Maybe I was thinking of kilogram figures? Anyway, you get my point.
    - dingusdew 4y ago
      [dead]
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- svnt 4y ago
  For the first time in history you could have 800 VDC automatic windows and you’re just abandoning the opportunity?
  - dingusdew 4y ago
    [dead]
- FooBarBizBazz 4y ago
  Maybe not literally -- I'd take power windows and AC, that's it -- but I agree with your point. Really, what dumbfuck decided that, because they're both "electronics", an electric car needs to be an iPad on wheels? Or that this concept is linked in some way with ADAS systems? I listen to VW execs talking about how "EVs are software". Are they? Says who? It's a fucking battery, a motor, a big-ass Buck/boost converter, and, in Tesla's case -- this element of complexity is legitimately good -- a heat pump. To exaggerate only slightly, I see no reason why any low-voltage ICs more complicated than an LM555 should be needed. Chip shortage? We need high-performance MOSFETS, yeah, but the controller could come from a technology node circa 1979. And then the insides are all "luxury". Everything comes with leather seats (which crack) and fancy interiors. No!! There is nothing wrong with the inside of a Camry. Give me that. I thought Tesla started with a Lotus. Talk about bare-bones. What the hell happened?
amelius 4y ago
Convenience is the root of all evil. It's why this planet is on the "highway to climate hell with our foot still on the accelerator".
- RestlessMind 4y ago
  I reached the same conclusion ("climate hell") with a slightly different thought process in this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35026113 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35026113 Luxury and convenience need energy. Most of the energy still comes from carbon. Ergo...
VLM 4y ago
Not just immediate sales, but a long term revenue stream. Toyota will make $0 off selling me replacement heated seat switches because I don't have them. Their only hope of a revenue stream is to carefully engineer the valve cover gasket to start leaking at 50K miles or similar.
- ghaff 4y ago
  Oh please. Go back a few decades and that car at 50K miles was probably ready for the junkyard, especially in areas with snow and salt. Arguing that modern cars are engineered to be unreliable is simply contrary to reality.
  - everdrive 4y ago
    The pendulum is swinging back a bit, and old cars would generally make it to 100k, and some old models had no problem far exceeding that. Modern cars are all currently wrestling with carbon buildup on their valves due to gasoline direct injection, which is really not great for long term reliability. I have a friend who's relatively recently-made Hyundai (2015-2016?) barely crawled to 100k. The complexity of modern cars hasn't made them terrible from a reliability standpoint, however we are definitely seeing some backsliding on progress.
    - ghaff 4y ago
      I do have to say that I had to buy a new vehicle last summer to replace a 13-year old one and the sheer number of sensors, motors, and other features--at least some of which seem rather gratuitous--gave me some pause. And this was a very middle-of-the-road Honda. Certainly a lot of modern vehicles are very reliable although I wonder if they could be even more reliable if, e.g. the side mirrors didn't tilt down every time you backed up.
    - UncleEntity 4y ago
      Do you think these cars get crushed or are bought by someone who drives them until they are really dead? I hate to be that guy but the whole automotive market has been like that for as long as there has been an automotive market. One person’s unreliable old car they bought new is someone else’s daily driver that they get their cousin to keep on the road for beers.
bannedbybros 4y ago
[dead]
znpy 4y ago
The basic car is basically dying. Most new cars are either SUVs or mini-SUVs, with a lot of green washing, and we’re all forgetting about sustainability and carbon footprint…
- gruez 4y ago
  You really think that 20 years ago people were driving sedans because they were trying to be environmentally friendly? It's far more likely that they never cared about it in the first place.
EliRivers 4y ago
I'm not going to be thrilled when I have to pay monthly for those switches to do anything, though.

dingusdew 4y ago

And here I just want an electric car with manual roll-up windows.

bick_nyers 4y ago
We skipped the analog part of electric cars and went straight to digital. As pretty as the touchscreens are, I want buttons and knobs.
- parineum 4y ago
  Every car has a screen now because California mandated back up cameras in new cars. It's bad business not to turn that thing into a touch screen and move controls to it.
  - bick_nyers 4y ago
    Is the addition of a touch element to an LCD really that much cheaper than plastic buttons and knobs?
    - ghaff 4y ago
      The thing is that if you're going to put a video screen of any size (not sure what the actual backup camera requirements are), you're going to use it as a navigation system--probably with Apple Play or Google Play--which is probably going to be a non-negotiable requirement for a lot of people at that point so it's going to be a touch screen anyway. And that means a lot of buttons are going to just be additional cost at that point. I agree manufacturers don't have to dispense with most buttons because they can. My Honda Passport actually strikes a pretty good balance. It would also be nice to have better voice control but that's been a hard problem with voice assistants generally.
      - parineum 4y ago
        This was exactly my point. I didn't mean to sound like I was happy with it but the lack of buttons is directly related to the presence of touch screens which is a result of the requirement to have the back up camera. I don't think the CA regulators would take back that requirement but you can definitely file this under "unintended consequences". In my last vehicle, I definitely chose one that had more buttons/dials than some of my other choices and it was a surprisingly high priority.
        ghaff 4y ago
        I'm not sure that the rules don't still allow the backup camera to display on the rearview mirror. (Don't see anything definitive on this.) In any case, most consumers really want an in-dash nav display (and other infotainment) at this point. But the backup camera requirement may have nudged things along a bit.
        parineum 4y ago
        > But the backup camera requirement may have nudged things along a bit. It _definitely_ had a major effect on the low end vehicles. It raised the floor more than it changed the ceiling.
      - bick_nyers 4y ago
        The navigation system on some cars are so atrocious. Impressively slow and inputting addresses can be a huge pain. I feel like a Raspberry Pi would have an order of magnitude better performance on many cars I have seen. I haven't bought a car recently so I don't know what the landscape looks like, but I would think that even offering the possibility of a customization to have a more analog dashboard would be profitable. Even if you stick it behind a $1k upcharge I think you would see a surprising number of people opt for it. Doesn't need to replace the digital touchscreen in all cases necessarily, just be a secondary control mechanism. Of course I'm sure we would run into situations where the analog buttons are an interface to the digital control system, so if the digital part is slow, some people might try to navigate using analog buttons too quickly. The digital interface hides that detail by design, if the menu isn't yet loaded, neither are the buttons you can click.
  - wildrhythms 4y ago
    I think most people are OK with a backup camera as it's a purely visual aid (an output), but putting actual controls of any sort (an input) on a touch screen in a vehicle is a terrible idea.
  - FooBarBizBazz 4y ago
    They need backup cameras because they have lost all the glass so they can pass the crash tests against the other 2,000-lb landwhales who also can't see them.
    - FooBarBizBazz 4y ago
      My number "2,000 lbs" was way off. That's the weight of a Fiat Panda. For another data point, the Hummer H2 is 6,000 lbs. Maybe I was thinking of kilogram figures? Anyway, you get my point.
  - dingusdew 4y ago
    [dead]
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
svnt 4y ago
For the first time in history you could have 800 VDC automatic windows and you’re just abandoning the opportunity?
- dingusdew 4y ago
  [dead]
FooBarBizBazz 4y ago
Maybe not literally -- I'd take power windows and AC, that's it -- but I agree with your point. Really, what dumbfuck decided that, because they're both "electronics", an electric car needs to be an iPad on wheels? Or that this concept is linked in some way with ADAS systems? I listen to VW execs talking about how "EVs are software". Are they? Says who? It's a fucking battery, a motor, a big-ass Buck/boost converter, and, in Tesla's case -- this element of complexity is legitimately good -- a heat pump. To exaggerate only slightly, I see no reason why any low-voltage ICs more complicated than an LM555 should be needed. Chip shortage? We need high-performance MOSFETS, yeah, but the controller could come from a technology node circa 1979. And then the insides are all "luxury". Everything comes with leather seats (which crack) and fancy interiors. No!! There is nothing wrong with the inside of a Camry. Give me that. I thought Tesla started with a Lotus. Talk about bare-bones. What the hell happened?

amelius 4y ago

Convenience is the root of all evil. It's why this planet is on the "highway to climate hell with our foot still on the accelerator".

RestlessMind 4y ago
I reached the same conclusion ("climate hell") with a slightly different thought process in this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35026113 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35026113 Luxury and convenience need energy. Most of the energy still comes from carbon. Ergo...

VLM 4y ago

Not just immediate sales, but a long term revenue stream. Toyota will make $0 off selling me replacement heated seat switches because I don't have them. Their only hope of a revenue stream is to carefully engineer the valve cover gasket to start leaking at 50K miles or similar.

ghaff 4y ago
Oh please. Go back a few decades and that car at 50K miles was probably ready for the junkyard, especially in areas with snow and salt. Arguing that modern cars are engineered to be unreliable is simply contrary to reality.
- everdrive 4y ago
  The pendulum is swinging back a bit, and old cars would generally make it to 100k, and some old models had no problem far exceeding that. Modern cars are all currently wrestling with carbon buildup on their valves due to gasoline direct injection, which is really not great for long term reliability. I have a friend who's relatively recently-made Hyundai (2015-2016?) barely crawled to 100k. The complexity of modern cars hasn't made them terrible from a reliability standpoint, however we are definitely seeing some backsliding on progress.
  - ghaff 4y ago
    I do have to say that I had to buy a new vehicle last summer to replace a 13-year old one and the sheer number of sensors, motors, and other features--at least some of which seem rather gratuitous--gave me some pause. And this was a very middle-of-the-road Honda. Certainly a lot of modern vehicles are very reliable although I wonder if they could be even more reliable if, e.g. the side mirrors didn't tilt down every time you backed up.
  - UncleEntity 4y ago
    Do you think these cars get crushed or are bought by someone who drives them until they are really dead? I hate to be that guy but the whole automotive market has been like that for as long as there has been an automotive market. One person’s unreliable old car they bought new is someone else’s daily driver that they get their cousin to keep on the road for beers.

bannedbybros 4y ago

[dead]

znpy 4y ago

The basic car is basically dying. Most new cars are either SUVs or mini-SUVs, with a lot of green washing, and we’re all forgetting about sustainability and carbon footprint…

gruez 4y ago
You really think that 20 years ago people were driving sedans because they were trying to be environmentally friendly? It's far more likely that they never cared about it in the first place.

EliRivers 4y ago

I'm not going to be thrilled when I have to pay monthly for those switches to do anything, though.