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Canada is basically captive to (comparatively) small canadian oligopolies that each have their little fiefdoms. It's very hard for outsiders to compete (there a

Canada is basically captive to (comparatively) small canadian oligopolies that each have their little fiefdoms. It's very hard for outsiders to compete (there are obvious exceptions like Walmart), or even impossible because of regulation. American companies try every once in a while because superficially the market looks attractive, but then retreat. Same happened with Target less than 10 years ago.

vkou 4y ago
What you're saying makes sense for things like telecoms, where the government is actively covering for the incumbents, but makes no sense for retailers.
- version_five 4y ago
  Look at the grocery market. Lowe's is another retailer I just remembered. We have home depot, but last I checked Rona, Kent, etc represent the rest of the competition in DIY stores
  - vkou 4y ago
    So what? What about the grocery market? What does that have to do with the price of butter? In the US it's also consolidating into a few giant incumbents. Do I get to blame that on government regulation, too? Which regulation? Again, I understand why Canada has an uncompetitive telecom, banking, and airline sector. But exactly what government intervention do you think is responsible for Nordstrom and Target failing to succeed in it? What intervention and regulation uniquely and unfairly advantages retail incumbents? Please be specific.
- jt2190 4y ago
  Supply chains are a massive part of retailing, and they are are not fungible across countries: All goods sold in Canada have to comply with Canadian laws. That typically means repackaging to comply with product labeling and language laws, but there are other things. Canadian consumers do not have the same expendable income as do U.S. consumers. The net effect is higher operating costs and lower margins at baseline. When the economy gets tougher that margin matters. Edit: Note that I’m not saying whether this approach is good or bad for Canada as policy, but the idea that there are no policies that shape the retail landscape is simply not true.
  - 908B64B197 4y ago
    > All goods sold in Canada have to comply with Canadian laws. That typically means repackaging to comply with product labeling and language laws, but there are other things. From my experience, most items I purchase already have French labelling on them. > Canadian consumers do not have the same expendable income as do U.S. consumers. The net effect is higher operating costs and lower margins at baseline. When the economy gets tougher that margin matters. Why is that? 20% drop is huge.
rnk 4y ago
Nordstrom isn't doing that well, even in the US though. And there's a general collapse of large retail stores in general, malls closing.
- glonq 4y ago
  I think Canada is the 'canary in the coal mine' for some US companies. Struggling here foreshadows future struggles on home turf.
goosedragons 4y ago
[flagged]
- vsviridov 4y ago
  There's a mini-documentary saying, that they needed to switch ERP systems, because original one did not support different currencies and metric system, so they sunk a bunch of time and money into that, which contributed greatly to them failing as well...
barbazoo 4y ago
How are retail stores/chains being regulated, did that actually have an impact here?
UseStrict 4y ago
Target was a bit more complex, a combination of issues with logistics and blindly taking over basically all of the locations of Zellers regardless of analysis meant they expanded quickly with not enough product making it to shelves, and not enough customer traffic. They carried fewer of the products you'd come to expect in an American Target store. Also due to this cost, the prices weren't more attractive than established incumbents like Wal-Mart.
fanatic2pope 4y ago
Target failed due to poor management, not regulation or entrenched competition. https://hbr.org/2015/01/why-targets-canadian-expansion-failed https://hbr.org/2015/01/why-targets-canadian-expansion-faile... http://marketingmag.ca/brands/what-really-went-wrong-with-target-canada-166300/ http://marketingmag.ca/brands/what-really-went-wrong-with-ta...
- inasio 4y ago
  There was an interesting fight at the time over the Target trademark, someone noticed that there was a Canadian trademark for Target up for grabs from a failed company and bought it, anticipating Target coming into Canada. Target ended up settling in court [0] [0] https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748703643104576291281223199122 https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748703643104576291...
- glonq 4y ago
  relevant... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4hDGJ2FwDI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4hDGJ2FwDI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohXYR69UhxI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohXYR69UhxI
lbwtaylor 4y ago
I don't think it's regulation, I think it's just a very hard market. Canadians have something like 20% less purchasing power than Americans, and I think a lot of entrants don't really appreciate that. Plus the country is large and sparsely populated with entrenched retail competitors. It's quite sad that Target murdered Zellers (my grandma liked their restaurants!) but Target lost to Walmart (and its own ineptitude) not to any regulation. Walmart by contrasts entered pretty cautiously and fits well into the purchasing power disparity situation. I think if Target had entered cautiously they would have done much better -- open a few stores in the east near the border with easy logistics and grow from there.
- seanmcdirmid 4y ago
  Not only that, but most Canadians live near the American border, and can shop American stores in the states at lower prices. Why go to Nordstroms in Vancouver when you can hit the one in Seattle? Costco in Bellingham does brisk business with mostly BC license plates.
  - bluefirebrand 4y ago
    There is no way the exchange rate makes it work out to actually be cheaper to cross the border to shop these days. Does it? Our dollar sucks
  - SoftTalker 4y ago
    Crossing the border is a bit of a PITA. A few years ago I took my kids to play in a youth hockey tournament that was split between the US and Canada. Our hotel was on the Canadian side. Crossing back and forth was a nuisance and even though beer was cheaper on the US side it was technically illegal to bring very much back across the border. I assume the same is true for other shopping.
    - buildbot 4y ago
      People who doe this regularly will get a NEXUS card, which makes the process much easier. Bringing alcohol back is totally fine in any quantity if I recall correctly, you just have to declare it and maybe pay some tax either direction. Fruits/veggies are more restricted I believe actually.
pupppet 4y ago
I remember walking into a Canadian Target just after the winter olympics and they had a large clothing line dedicated to an American snowboarder (blasphemy!) and thinking wow does this company not know its audience.
richardlblair 4y ago
Canadian here - Nordstrom offered outrageously priced goods. The luxury market here is small. Even when it's within reach for someone they aren't likely to chooes the luxury version over a more accessible version. Fancy things aren't really viewed the same here. In many places having a really nice car doesn't make you "the man". It makes you come across as "flashy". Kinda like "what are they trying to prove?". Even if the person just likes the car, others make it out to be a thing. tl;dr - they didn't stand a chance because they didn't understand the market.
- math0ne 4y ago
  As someone that lives in downtown Vancouver and was a regular Nordstrom shopper we have a very different view of Canadians. I think the real issue if the proliferation of high end brand specific stores, why buy buy a LV purse from Nordstrom when there is an LV store next door. The designer brands are just figuring out distribution themselves. The luxury market is huge in major Canadian cities.
  - richardlblair 4y ago
    I'm one of the people who enjoy luxury goods. I'm from the Toronto area (Niagara really), lived in Ottawa for 8 years. Every time we go to Vancouver we go shopping. The density of luxury goods is the best in Canada. I think being from Van has skewed your perception a bit. If you look at other countries around the world you will see higher availability of luxury goods, in higher density. The watch market is a good example of this.
dirtyid 4y ago
Part of me wonder if Loblaws is reason Trader Joes never tried to move to Canada, one of the few US chains most Canadians I know want locally.
Eddy_Viscosity2 4y ago
Nordstrom is expensive and there's nothing at Nordstrom that is so fantastically better than available for far less at other retailers.
- ROTMetro 4y ago
  When I used to have money I shopped at Nordstroms. Now that I don't have money almost 10 years later around 40% of my closet is still those Nordstroms items. Between the better quality and better fit allowing them to look stylish longer, I would strongly disagree with your statement. I still get compliments on my almost 10 year old clothes.
  - Eddy_Viscosity2 4y ago
    The price to quality ratio may very well have been that way 10 years ago, but my experience is that is not the case now. I'm sure there are items in the store now that are worth the value, but in general I would say it isn't.

vkou 4y ago

What you're saying makes sense for things like telecoms, where the government is actively covering for the incumbents, but makes no sense for retailers.

version_five 4y ago
Look at the grocery market. Lowe's is another retailer I just remembered. We have home depot, but last I checked Rona, Kent, etc represent the rest of the competition in DIY stores
- vkou 4y ago
  So what? What about the grocery market? What does that have to do with the price of butter? In the US it's also consolidating into a few giant incumbents. Do I get to blame that on government regulation, too? Which regulation? Again, I understand why Canada has an uncompetitive telecom, banking, and airline sector. But exactly what government intervention do you think is responsible for Nordstrom and Target failing to succeed in it? What intervention and regulation uniquely and unfairly advantages retail incumbents? Please be specific.
jt2190 4y ago
Supply chains are a massive part of retailing, and they are are not fungible across countries: All goods sold in Canada have to comply with Canadian laws. That typically means repackaging to comply with product labeling and language laws, but there are other things. Canadian consumers do not have the same expendable income as do U.S. consumers. The net effect is higher operating costs and lower margins at baseline. When the economy gets tougher that margin matters. Edit: Note that I’m not saying whether this approach is good or bad for Canada as policy, but the idea that there are no policies that shape the retail landscape is simply not true.
- 908B64B197 4y ago
  > All goods sold in Canada have to comply with Canadian laws. That typically means repackaging to comply with product labeling and language laws, but there are other things. From my experience, most items I purchase already have French labelling on them. > Canadian consumers do not have the same expendable income as do U.S. consumers. The net effect is higher operating costs and lower margins at baseline. When the economy gets tougher that margin matters. Why is that? 20% drop is huge.

rnk 4y ago

Nordstrom isn't doing that well, even in the US though. And there's a general collapse of large retail stores in general, malls closing.

glonq 4y ago
I think Canada is the 'canary in the coal mine' for some US companies. Struggling here foreshadows future struggles on home turf.

goosedragons 4y ago

[flagged]

vsviridov 4y ago
There's a mini-documentary saying, that they needed to switch ERP systems, because original one did not support different currencies and metric system, so they sunk a bunch of time and money into that, which contributed greatly to them failing as well...

barbazoo 4y ago

How are retail stores/chains being regulated, did that actually have an impact here?

UseStrict 4y ago

Target was a bit more complex, a combination of issues with logistics and blindly taking over basically all of the locations of Zellers regardless of analysis meant they expanded quickly with not enough product making it to shelves, and not enough customer traffic. They carried fewer of the products you'd come to expect in an American Target store. Also due to this cost, the prices weren't more attractive than established incumbents like Wal-Mart.

fanatic2pope 4y ago

Target failed due to poor management, not regulation or entrenched competition. https://hbr.org/2015/01/why-targets-canadian-expansion-failed https://hbr.org/2015/01/why-targets-canadian-expansion-faile... http://marketingmag.ca/brands/what-really-went-wrong-with-target-canada-166300/ http://marketingmag.ca/brands/what-really-went-wrong-with-ta...

inasio 4y ago
There was an interesting fight at the time over the Target trademark, someone noticed that there was a Canadian trademark for Target up for grabs from a failed company and bought it, anticipating Target coming into Canada. Target ended up settling in court [0] [0] https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748703643104576291281223199122 https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748703643104576291...
glonq 4y ago
relevant... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4hDGJ2FwDI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4hDGJ2FwDI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohXYR69UhxI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohXYR69UhxI

lbwtaylor 4y ago

I don't think it's regulation, I think it's just a very hard market. Canadians have something like 20% less purchasing power than Americans, and I think a lot of entrants don't really appreciate that. Plus the country is large and sparsely populated with entrenched retail competitors. It's quite sad that Target murdered Zellers (my grandma liked their restaurants!) but Target lost to Walmart (and its own ineptitude) not to any regulation. Walmart by contrasts entered pretty cautiously and fits well into the purchasing power disparity situation. I think if Target had entered cautiously they would have done much better -- open a few stores in the east near the border with easy logistics and grow from there.

seanmcdirmid 4y ago
Not only that, but most Canadians live near the American border, and can shop American stores in the states at lower prices. Why go to Nordstroms in Vancouver when you can hit the one in Seattle? Costco in Bellingham does brisk business with mostly BC license plates.
- bluefirebrand 4y ago
  There is no way the exchange rate makes it work out to actually be cheaper to cross the border to shop these days. Does it? Our dollar sucks
- SoftTalker 4y ago
  Crossing the border is a bit of a PITA. A few years ago I took my kids to play in a youth hockey tournament that was split between the US and Canada. Our hotel was on the Canadian side. Crossing back and forth was a nuisance and even though beer was cheaper on the US side it was technically illegal to bring very much back across the border. I assume the same is true for other shopping.
  - buildbot 4y ago
    People who doe this regularly will get a NEXUS card, which makes the process much easier. Bringing alcohol back is totally fine in any quantity if I recall correctly, you just have to declare it and maybe pay some tax either direction. Fruits/veggies are more restricted I believe actually.

pupppet 4y ago

I remember walking into a Canadian Target just after the winter olympics and they had a large clothing line dedicated to an American snowboarder (blasphemy!) and thinking wow does this company not know its audience.

richardlblair 4y ago

Canadian here - Nordstrom offered outrageously priced goods. The luxury market here is small. Even when it's within reach for someone they aren't likely to chooes the luxury version over a more accessible version. Fancy things aren't really viewed the same here. In many places having a really nice car doesn't make you "the man". It makes you come across as "flashy". Kinda like "what are they trying to prove?". Even if the person just likes the car, others make it out to be a thing. tl;dr - they didn't stand a chance because they didn't understand the market.

math0ne 4y ago
As someone that lives in downtown Vancouver and was a regular Nordstrom shopper we have a very different view of Canadians. I think the real issue if the proliferation of high end brand specific stores, why buy buy a LV purse from Nordstrom when there is an LV store next door. The designer brands are just figuring out distribution themselves. The luxury market is huge in major Canadian cities.
- richardlblair 4y ago
  I'm one of the people who enjoy luxury goods. I'm from the Toronto area (Niagara really), lived in Ottawa for 8 years. Every time we go to Vancouver we go shopping. The density of luxury goods is the best in Canada. I think being from Van has skewed your perception a bit. If you look at other countries around the world you will see higher availability of luxury goods, in higher density. The watch market is a good example of this.

dirtyid 4y ago

Part of me wonder if Loblaws is reason Trader Joes never tried to move to Canada, one of the few US chains most Canadians I know want locally.

Eddy_Viscosity2 4y ago

Nordstrom is expensive and there's nothing at Nordstrom that is so fantastically better than available for far less at other retailers.

ROTMetro 4y ago
When I used to have money I shopped at Nordstroms. Now that I don't have money almost 10 years later around 40% of my closet is still those Nordstroms items. Between the better quality and better fit allowing them to look stylish longer, I would strongly disagree with your statement. I still get compliments on my almost 10 year old clothes.
- Eddy_Viscosity2 4y ago
  The price to quality ratio may very well have been that way 10 years ago, but my experience is that is not the case now. I'm sure there are items in the store now that are worth the value, but in general I would say it isn't.