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I don’t think young people appreciate how talking to strangers in public went from common and acceptable to creepy and taboo in the last 15 years. They seem to

by ipnon 4y ago

I don’t think young people appreciate how talking to strangers in public went from common and acceptable to creepy and taboo in the last 15 years. They seem to think things have always been like this (they have not). Before 2000 most people met their spouse at work (!) followed by restaurants (!) followed by bars (!). All of these would be borderline harassment now but it’s how your grandparents met, and they most likely had rosy memories of the occasion.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> how talking to strangers in public went from common and acceptable to creepy and taboo in the last 15 years This is strongly linked to class. The kids of rich friends have no problem striking up conversations with strangers, because they’ve been doing it at cocktail parties and restaurants since they were young. My less well-off friends’ kids have more screen time, much less opportunity for spontaneous conversation with unknown adults (they’re not taken out to eat) and spend more public time in unsafe spaces where there is legitimate concern about others’ willingness to hurt them.
- ryandrake 4y ago
  So glad I'm out of the dating market and no longer have to worry about this. Creepiness is entirely in the mind of the beholder. Two people A and B striking up the same conversation with the same recipient. Same actions, same words, same attention. Person A could be considered creepy and person B could be considered flirting, and it's purely based on whether the recipient wanted attention from A or B. So it's a huge risk--how are your actions going to be received?
  - Nextgrid 4y ago
    This is very much a problem due to social media and witch hunts. Creepiness was always a thing, but the worst that could happen back in the day is a rejection if things don't work out. Nowadays however, it can very well escalate into worldwide public ridicule and/or a witch hunt on social media, with potentially career-ending consequences. You are only really safe if you're either extremely attractive (both to initially reduce the risk of a rejection, and to garner sympathy from would-be witch hunters), are rich enough to not worry about career consequences (or your employer isn't vulnerable to public opinion), or can spin the witch hunt for your own benefit if your entire brand is already based on being against the mainstream (think Andrew Tate for example). No wonder it's not worth the risk for the vast majority of people.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- drewcoo 4y ago
  > This is strongly linked to class. The kids of rich friends . . . less well-off friends’ kids have more screen time, much less opportunity for spontaneous conversation with unknown adults I think your poor friends must be middle class. Poor parents don't have time to hover like that what with sleeping and multiple jobs and all.
titzer 4y ago
It's kind of incredible, looking back, how fear after fear just compounded themselves after 2001, until we ended up being afraid of everything.
- ShredKazoo 4y ago
  The thing that frustrates me is that if you speak out against safetyism, some people will ignore what you're saying and just declare you a safety threat. It'd be nice if we made more decisions using cost/benefit analysis instead of emotive fearmongering. I actually think 2001 is a good talking point, because by now there is widespread agreement that it represents a case of fearmongering getting out of control -- with the benefit of hindsight, it's clear that people who e.g. spoke out against TSA excesses were not, in fact, aiding and abetting terrorists. But it seems like analogous arguments "aiding and abetting" arguments are currently being made in a few other domains.
  - macrolocal 4y ago
    Agreed. Cowardice and recklessness are both evils, and it’s possible to navigate the strait between them.
tacitusarc 4y ago
I think this may be through the lense of the 90s and early 00s. Dating has changed dramatically since its inception about 2 centuries ago. Additionally, it would be remiss not to mention church as one the the most common (even today, and far more so in the past) places where couples meet.
the_only_law 4y ago
Work I can understand, though I’ve always been a demographic outlier at work and that was never an option whether I think it’s a good idea or not. Bars, make a little more sense. Bars are designed in a way that you’re in close proximity to other people (often strangers) and also probably a bit more amenable to be friendly with said strangers thanks to alcohol. But how do you meet your spouse at restaurants? Restaurants aren’t very social places.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > But how do you meet your spouse at restaurants? Restaurants aren’t very social places. They can be, and they also often have bars that are just as social as a bar-as-distinct-venue.
- RhysU 4y ago
  I met my spouse at a restaurant. Organize a big dinner between two distinct social groups with only one or two linkages. In my case, my coworker was dating my future spouse's coworker. Very different companies. Those two arranged a dinner so their friends could meet. We had the big room at the Clay Pit in Austin where it's possible to hold a cross-table conversation. Don't sit near only people you know. Don't talk in-jokes with the people you already know. As dinner's wrapping up see if anyone wants to go dancing or whatever. Anyone with mutual eyes on each other will definitely continue to hang out into the evening. And it's easy to ask someone to dance or hang out again at that point because you just spent hours with them at dinner.
  - the_only_law 4y ago
    > Organize a big dinner between two distinct social groups with only one or two linkages Unfortunately it’s difficult enough to get one together now. Particularly after Covid it seems no one wants to do anything anymore.
    - RhysU 4y ago
      At that time we were in the habit of doing big group dinners but we had ramped up from 4 or 6 people to 10 or 12 being common and, that night, 16ish. Organizing dinners and getting people to come out is a muscle to train, like any other. It snowballs as people from the last time talk up the next.
ShredKazoo 4y ago
I think the explanation is the same as for hitchhiking: https://freakonomics.com/podcast/where-have-all-the-hitchhikers-gone/ https://freakonomics.com/podcast/where-have-all-the-hitchhik... It's a multi-step process: 1. Society has some kind of neutral/positive norm like hitchhiking or friendly chats with strangers 2. There are a few high-profile incidents of people abusing this norm. Fearmongering news stories, hurt/anxious people staying inside and venting on the internet, etc. 3. The message goes out: "Responsible people avoid [norm] for the sake of safety" 4. After the message goes out, people respond differently depending on how concerned they are with being prosocial. The people concerned with being prosocial tend to abide by the message and avoid the norm. The people less concerned with being prosocial tend to ignore the warning. 5. The norm is now a little bit riskier, because the people who engage in it are now disproportionately antisocial. This causes the per-capita rate of abuse to rise. Return to step 2.
- drewcoo 4y ago
  > 5. The norm is now a little bit riskier, because the people who engage in it are now disproportionately antisocial. Which is odd, really, considering it's literally ride-SHARING. It's far more social to hop in someone's car than to stand alone on the roadside.
  - red-iron-pine 4y ago
    Sure but its ride sharing with random strangers. Uber says the person's name, has their phone number, their car with make & model, license plate number, etc. If something happens there is a way to track down who / what / where / when. Plus the riders also have a score. You know each other, sort of. Just like the drivers there is an account, a name, a phone number. With hitching neither side has any idea what they're getting. Probably alright, probably not too weird -- but you have no way of knowing.
Nextgrid 4y ago
Talking to strangers is much more risky nowadays now that everything is published on social media forever. The worst outcome of a failed/awkward/unwanted social interaction back in the day is a rejection and possibly the recipient laughing at you (maybe with their friends) - no big deal. Nowadays it can very well translate to worldwide public ridicule, harassment and potentially career consequences given that most companies are happily submitting to public opinion.
- vinyl7 4y ago
  I think thats a perception we have that's not entirely based in reality
  - red-iron-pine 4y ago
    Yeah it might be true if you're a teenager or something, but unless you end up on the front page of reddit who cares?
kennethrc 4y ago
> I don’t think young people appreciate how talking to strangers in public went from common and acceptable to creepy and taboo in the last 15 years ... uh, what? I meet people (i.e., "talk to strangers") all the time in public, it hasn't changed at all (and I've been doing it for far longer than 15 years). OK, work's a little different (but that was never particularly a place (for me, anyway) to meet people), but the rest? Don't see the "creepy and taboo" at all.
- clashmoore 4y ago
  I think it’s more regional. I know in my city visitors find it weird when local strangers just start including them in conversations. I know I’d frequent places a line and be fine striking up conversations with whoever was also there. But me visiting other cities and trying the same, I’d be met with wired looks and asked why I’m talking to them.
xboxnolifes 4y ago
I'm in the young cohort, and it's frankly insane how many of my friends consider starting a conversation with a stranger in public to be almost sinful in basically every context. Bars are still acceptable, but for basically every other public place I've heard them complain, one way or another, about someone trying to start a conversation with them. Not about them not taking no for an answer, just being annoyed that they tried. Now, I know it's "not every young person", since I also know many social butterflies, but the number I know is still shocking.
- giardini 4y ago
  A significant problem is earbuds. People wear them anywhere: walking in the middle of auto traffic, in saunas and pools. Unless a cellphone is visible one may not realize a person is in a conversation. Years ago It was depressing to see someone talking to himself in the middle of a parking lot; now it's an everyday occurrence but not madness b/c there's a real conversation. Every now and then I ponder whether the cellphone and earbuds combo hasn't become the perfect disguise for schizophrenics.
  - grog_tremor 4y ago
    I sometimes wear earbuds or headphones just to avoid people trying to talk to me. I'm not even listening to anything, those things are completely silent. I just don't want contact with people.
    - giardini 4y ago
      grog_tremor says>"I sometimes wear earbuds or headphones just to avoid people trying to talk to me. I'm not even listening to anything, those things are completely silent. I just don't want contact with people."< So you're essentially a hermit surrounded by a society! You may share some characteristics with those who meditate, deaf persons, the autistic et al but, to your advantage, you have the option of hearing. I must admit sometimes I need some silence.
tjansen 4y ago
Doesn't that also depend on the age? As a European visiting the US, I always found it amazing that so many mostly older random stranger just start conversations everywhere. Something almost no one would do in my home country. But I also noticed that younger people (especially twens) wouldn't do this and appeared to be very shy, avoiding any unneeded conversation. It was like that even before Covid.
jfengel 4y ago
Your grandmother may have fond memories of the time she met your grandfather, but she likely also has many negative memories of all the men she turned down -- and who then insulted her for doing so. It wasn't all of them, but it only takes a few men calling you a "bitch" to make you want to carry a sign that says "please don't talk to me". Her granddaughter goes online, where she makes herself available for dating. And yeah, she knows she's going to get a lot of unpleasantness, but at least it's confined to a place she's expecting it. It's not following her into every grocery store, every restaurant, every gym. The behavior was always creepy. Women were just expected to tolerate it. If you want to meet somebody romantically, go to the places set aside for it. Which also includes some people in some bars, in fact, but you know that every woman on a dating site is there for dating.
- archagon 4y ago
  This is exactly the perspective that gets lost in these sausage party threads.
  - jfengel 4y ago
    The weird part is how many men seem to resent being told it, to judge from the way it's usually downvoted. If men actually listened to that perspective, they'd have a lot more success with women. Instead, they seem to insist that they're right, and the women are wrong, and they're going to keep doing these behaviors that put women off. They'd rather cling to their perspectives, even over the opportunity to get laid.
    - foul 4y ago
      People in developed world (and most of all males) not getting laid, marrying, having sons, is a big problem. But I see as much bad as a problem the abundance of fearmongering news like that on root, which creates big awe for paranoia, which (in this case because these are heterosexual matters) polarizes discussion, which motivates people like you and archagon to decree that blaming will solve anything. Luckily for my mild contempt of your (and archagon's, and whoever else's in this milieu) comment, a generation of men and women having a million other (in their head) "more important things to do" than fail indefinitely at mating, getting old and die childless and probably alone shall be a problem your sons are going to inherit.

by ipnon 4y ago

JumpCrisscross 4y ago

> how talking to strangers in public went from common and acceptable to creepy and taboo in the last 15 years This is strongly linked to class. The kids of rich friends have no problem striking up conversations with strangers, because they’ve been doing it at cocktail parties and restaurants since they were young. My less well-off friends’ kids have more screen time, much less opportunity for spontaneous conversation with unknown adults (they’re not taken out to eat) and spend more public time in unsafe spaces where there is legitimate concern about others’ willingness to hurt them.

ryandrake 4y ago
So glad I'm out of the dating market and no longer have to worry about this. Creepiness is entirely in the mind of the beholder. Two people A and B striking up the same conversation with the same recipient. Same actions, same words, same attention. Person A could be considered creepy and person B could be considered flirting, and it's purely based on whether the recipient wanted attention from A or B. So it's a huge risk--how are your actions going to be received?
- Nextgrid 4y ago
  This is very much a problem due to social media and witch hunts. Creepiness was always a thing, but the worst that could happen back in the day is a rejection if things don't work out. Nowadays however, it can very well escalate into worldwide public ridicule and/or a witch hunt on social media, with potentially career-ending consequences. You are only really safe if you're either extremely attractive (both to initially reduce the risk of a rejection, and to garner sympathy from would-be witch hunters), are rich enough to not worry about career consequences (or your employer isn't vulnerable to public opinion), or can spin the witch hunt for your own benefit if your entire brand is already based on being against the mainstream (think Andrew Tate for example). No wonder it's not worth the risk for the vast majority of people.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
drewcoo 4y ago
> This is strongly linked to class. The kids of rich friends . . . less well-off friends’ kids have more screen time, much less opportunity for spontaneous conversation with unknown adults I think your poor friends must be middle class. Poor parents don't have time to hover like that what with sleeping and multiple jobs and all.

titzer 4y ago

It's kind of incredible, looking back, how fear after fear just compounded themselves after 2001, until we ended up being afraid of everything.

ShredKazoo 4y ago
The thing that frustrates me is that if you speak out against safetyism, some people will ignore what you're saying and just declare you a safety threat. It'd be nice if we made more decisions using cost/benefit analysis instead of emotive fearmongering. I actually think 2001 is a good talking point, because by now there is widespread agreement that it represents a case of fearmongering getting out of control -- with the benefit of hindsight, it's clear that people who e.g. spoke out against TSA excesses were not, in fact, aiding and abetting terrorists. But it seems like analogous arguments "aiding and abetting" arguments are currently being made in a few other domains.
- macrolocal 4y ago
  Agreed. Cowardice and recklessness are both evils, and it’s possible to navigate the strait between them.

tacitusarc 4y ago

I think this may be through the lense of the 90s and early 00s. Dating has changed dramatically since its inception about 2 centuries ago. Additionally, it would be remiss not to mention church as one the the most common (even today, and far more so in the past) places where couples meet.

the_only_law 4y ago

Work I can understand, though I’ve always been a demographic outlier at work and that was never an option whether I think it’s a good idea or not. Bars, make a little more sense. Bars are designed in a way that you’re in close proximity to other people (often strangers) and also probably a bit more amenable to be friendly with said strangers thanks to alcohol. But how do you meet your spouse at restaurants? Restaurants aren’t very social places.

dragonwriter 4y ago
> But how do you meet your spouse at restaurants? Restaurants aren’t very social places. They can be, and they also often have bars that are just as social as a bar-as-distinct-venue.
RhysU 4y ago
I met my spouse at a restaurant. Organize a big dinner between two distinct social groups with only one or two linkages. In my case, my coworker was dating my future spouse's coworker. Very different companies. Those two arranged a dinner so their friends could meet. We had the big room at the Clay Pit in Austin where it's possible to hold a cross-table conversation. Don't sit near only people you know. Don't talk in-jokes with the people you already know. As dinner's wrapping up see if anyone wants to go dancing or whatever. Anyone with mutual eyes on each other will definitely continue to hang out into the evening. And it's easy to ask someone to dance or hang out again at that point because you just spent hours with them at dinner.
- the_only_law 4y ago
  > Organize a big dinner between two distinct social groups with only one or two linkages Unfortunately it’s difficult enough to get one together now. Particularly after Covid it seems no one wants to do anything anymore.
  - RhysU 4y ago
    At that time we were in the habit of doing big group dinners but we had ramped up from 4 or 6 people to 10 or 12 being common and, that night, 16ish. Organizing dinners and getting people to come out is a muscle to train, like any other. It snowballs as people from the last time talk up the next.

ShredKazoo 4y ago

I think the explanation is the same as for hitchhiking: https://freakonomics.com/podcast/where-have-all-the-hitchhikers-gone/ https://freakonomics.com/podcast/where-have-all-the-hitchhik... It's a multi-step process: 1. Society has some kind of neutral/positive norm like hitchhiking or friendly chats with strangers 2. There are a few high-profile incidents of people abusing this norm. Fearmongering news stories, hurt/anxious people staying inside and venting on the internet, etc. 3. The message goes out: "Responsible people avoid [norm] for the sake of safety" 4. After the message goes out, people respond differently depending on how concerned they are with being prosocial. The people concerned with being prosocial tend to abide by the message and avoid the norm. The people less concerned with being prosocial tend to ignore the warning. 5. The norm is now a little bit riskier, because the people who engage in it are now disproportionately antisocial. This causes the per-capita rate of abuse to rise. Return to step 2.

drewcoo 4y ago
> 5. The norm is now a little bit riskier, because the people who engage in it are now disproportionately antisocial. Which is odd, really, considering it's literally ride-SHARING. It's far more social to hop in someone's car than to stand alone on the roadside.
- red-iron-pine 4y ago
  Sure but its ride sharing with random strangers. Uber says the person's name, has their phone number, their car with make & model, license plate number, etc. If something happens there is a way to track down who / what / where / when. Plus the riders also have a score. You know each other, sort of. Just like the drivers there is an account, a name, a phone number. With hitching neither side has any idea what they're getting. Probably alright, probably not too weird -- but you have no way of knowing.

Nextgrid 4y ago

Talking to strangers is much more risky nowadays now that everything is published on social media forever. The worst outcome of a failed/awkward/unwanted social interaction back in the day is a rejection and possibly the recipient laughing at you (maybe with their friends) - no big deal. Nowadays it can very well translate to worldwide public ridicule, harassment and potentially career consequences given that most companies are happily submitting to public opinion.

vinyl7 4y ago
I think thats a perception we have that's not entirely based in reality
- red-iron-pine 4y ago
  Yeah it might be true if you're a teenager or something, but unless you end up on the front page of reddit who cares?

kennethrc 4y ago

> I don’t think young people appreciate how talking to strangers in public went from common and acceptable to creepy and taboo in the last 15 years ... uh, what? I meet people (i.e., "talk to strangers") all the time in public, it hasn't changed at all (and I've been doing it for far longer than 15 years). OK, work's a little different (but that was never particularly a place (for me, anyway) to meet people), but the rest? Don't see the "creepy and taboo" at all.

clashmoore 4y ago
I think it’s more regional. I know in my city visitors find it weird when local strangers just start including them in conversations. I know I’d frequent places a line and be fine striking up conversations with whoever was also there. But me visiting other cities and trying the same, I’d be met with wired looks and asked why I’m talking to them.

xboxnolifes 4y ago

I'm in the young cohort, and it's frankly insane how many of my friends consider starting a conversation with a stranger in public to be almost sinful in basically every context. Bars are still acceptable, but for basically every other public place I've heard them complain, one way or another, about someone trying to start a conversation with them. Not about them not taking no for an answer, just being annoyed that they tried. Now, I know it's "not every young person", since I also know many social butterflies, but the number I know is still shocking.

giardini 4y ago
A significant problem is earbuds. People wear them anywhere: walking in the middle of auto traffic, in saunas and pools. Unless a cellphone is visible one may not realize a person is in a conversation. Years ago It was depressing to see someone talking to himself in the middle of a parking lot; now it's an everyday occurrence but not madness b/c there's a real conversation. Every now and then I ponder whether the cellphone and earbuds combo hasn't become the perfect disguise for schizophrenics.
- grog_tremor 4y ago
  I sometimes wear earbuds or headphones just to avoid people trying to talk to me. I'm not even listening to anything, those things are completely silent. I just don't want contact with people.
  - giardini 4y ago
    grog_tremor says>"I sometimes wear earbuds or headphones just to avoid people trying to talk to me. I'm not even listening to anything, those things are completely silent. I just don't want contact with people."< So you're essentially a hermit surrounded by a society! You may share some characteristics with those who meditate, deaf persons, the autistic et al but, to your advantage, you have the option of hearing. I must admit sometimes I need some silence.

tjansen 4y ago

Doesn't that also depend on the age? As a European visiting the US, I always found it amazing that so many mostly older random stranger just start conversations everywhere. Something almost no one would do in my home country. But I also noticed that younger people (especially twens) wouldn't do this and appeared to be very shy, avoiding any unneeded conversation. It was like that even before Covid.

jfengel 4y ago

Your grandmother may have fond memories of the time she met your grandfather, but she likely also has many negative memories of all the men she turned down -- and who then insulted her for doing so. It wasn't all of them, but it only takes a few men calling you a "bitch" to make you want to carry a sign that says "please don't talk to me". Her granddaughter goes online, where she makes herself available for dating. And yeah, she knows she's going to get a lot of unpleasantness, but at least it's confined to a place she's expecting it. It's not following her into every grocery store, every restaurant, every gym. The behavior was always creepy. Women were just expected to tolerate it. If you want to meet somebody romantically, go to the places set aside for it. Which also includes some people in some bars, in fact, but you know that every woman on a dating site is there for dating.

archagon 4y ago
This is exactly the perspective that gets lost in these sausage party threads.
- jfengel 4y ago
  The weird part is how many men seem to resent being told it, to judge from the way it's usually downvoted. If men actually listened to that perspective, they'd have a lot more success with women. Instead, they seem to insist that they're right, and the women are wrong, and they're going to keep doing these behaviors that put women off. They'd rather cling to their perspectives, even over the opportunity to get laid.
  - foul 4y ago
    People in developed world (and most of all males) not getting laid, marrying, having sons, is a big problem. But I see as much bad as a problem the abundance of fearmongering news like that on root, which creates big awe for paranoia, which (in this case because these are heterosexual matters) polarizes discussion, which motivates people like you and archagon to decree that blaming will solve anything. Luckily for my mild contempt of your (and archagon's, and whoever else's in this milieu) comment, a generation of men and women having a million other (in their head) "more important things to do" than fail indefinitely at mating, getting old and die childless and probably alone shall be a problem your sons are going to inherit.