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Apple rumored to subvert EU Rules by nerfing USB-C on iPhone15
- not_me_ever 4y agoConsidering the abysmal quality of USB-C cables you can buy online today I am quite happy that somebody works on improving the situation.
- pjmlp 4y agoThe difference being that those cables would still work with other non Apple devices, contrary to what happens with lighting.
- zamadatix 4y agoUnless they too run an MFi equivalent.
- toast0 4y agoIf Apple allows baseline charging (5V @ 500mA) with an unmarked cable, that's not the worst thing either. That'll get you at least most of the way charged overnight, which would be good enough for a significant portion of users.
- dogma1138 4y agoThey aren’t allowed to do it, their device has to be charged with any USB-C cable and charger at up-to 5V@3A. If they support fast charging at currents above 3A or at voltages above 5V they MUST adopt the USB-PD spec and then the device MUST support any USB-PD compatible charging solution to its design limit or 100W which ever is lower.
- shagie 4y ago> While this might appear to be a consumer-hostile move from Apple, there are reasons the company might want a certification process. Obviously, Apple stands to make some money from charging for the certified parts and technology, but consumers will also have more confidence in buying products they know are guaranteed to work seamlessly with the iPhone. > Despite all of the praise USB-C gets for its universal connector, there are a lot of problems with it too. It is nearly impossible to tell what capabilities a cable might have just by looking at it, which could potentially damage a product if connected in an unexpected way. --- https://www.zdnet.com/home-and-office/smart-office/using-the-wrong-usb-c-cable-can-damage-your-tech-heres-how-to-avoid-that/ https://www.zdnet.com/home-and-office/smart-office/using-the... > Some cables could carry 100W and handle 10Gbps, while others might be limited to 60W and 5Gbps or even 480Mbps. > The idea is to stop 100W of power from being pushed down a cable that can't handle it. This could, at worse, result in fires. > One problem with E-Mark is that it's not as widely supported as it should be. While a quality charger shouldn't try to push 60W or even 100W down an unsuitable cable, I've seen it happen. > And unless you're aware of it, you'd have no idea that it was unsafe. > Then there's the issue of cables that claim to have the E-Mark which do not have the E-Mark. Unless you have a tool that can read the E-Mark, you have to take the manufacturer's word for it. --- I'm going to contend this isn't so much subverting EU rules but rather trying to ensure that Apple won't get blamed when someone uses a cable that can't handle the power when plugged in given that there's not a good standard out there for this and no enforcement of the "ok, there's something - try this..."
- znpy 4y agoI’m pretty sure no laptop maker got blamed about some user using a third party power adapter and ruining the laptop or starting a fire. This is just bs.
- JustSomeNobody 4y ago> While a quality charger shouldn't try to push 60W or even 100W down an unsuitable cable, I've seen it happen. How is this even possible?
- LorenPechtel 4y agoCheap cables may not implement the detection properly. Device says I want 100W, charger says I can give 100W, dumb cable just sits there letting them talk and doesn't say no.
- error503 4y agoWhat you describe would be a broken charger, not a broken cable. The charger is supposed to interrogate the cable and only offer 5A if a) the cable responds and b) responds with a 5A capability.
- LorenPechtel 4y agoThat's what's *supposed to* happen, but some of the bad cables omit that and the charger is actually talking to the device, not the cable.
- error503 4y agoHuh? That's not how the PD protocol works, it's a multidrop bus, and the device won't respond to requests addressed to the cable.
- kitsunesoba 4y agoI agree. One might ask why they haven't done the same for iPads and MacBooks, and I think the answer there is the sheer difference in volume — Apple sells many, many more iPhones than they do iPads or MacBooks, and so the number of users that are likely to fall victim to shoddy cables is much higher, especially considering the increased percentage of less-tech-savvy buying phones compared to laptops or tablets. A lot of smartphone users see no issue with buying the cheapest "WEGLOB" branded cable on Amazon because as far as they're concerned, there's no difference between that and a cable from a more reputable manufacturer.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- dogma1138 4y agoThey can potentially do it for data and certain accessories such as various addons and audio devices however not for charging. The EU regulation requires that any device capable of charging above 15W to also provide support for USB-PD. The TLDR is that between 0-15W any USB-C cable and charger should be able to charge @5V up to 3A as per the base USB-C spec. For charging above 15W or above 5V any USB-PD certified cable and charger should be able to be used up-to the maximum allowed charging for that device or up-to 100W. This has also impacted a lot of other handset manufacturers with proprietary fast charging solutions such as Samsung and Huawei.
- PedroBatista 4y agoApple really can't be told to do something against their will. It always has to have "the last word" and this behavior isn't new, the Korean Appstore debacle is just an example. Of course there are "reasons", but let's be honest if Apple really wanted to comply and move on to better things this whole problem wouldn't even exist because Apple would have fixed it.
- sschueller 4y agoYup, Apple is probably the biggest global vendor in Switzerland that refuses to accept Swiss payment methods like Twint[1] or the now defunct PostFinance card[2]. It's such an Issue that every time you do anything in the Apple store they constantly tell you, we don't accept ..., make sure your have another payment method when you pickup your device. BTW, they still charge a ~10% premium in Switzerland compared to the rest of Europe, just because. [1] https://www.twint.ch/en/ https://www.twint.ch/en/ [2] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postfinance_Card https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postfinance_Card
- anotherboffin 4y ago> BTW, they still charge a ~10% premium in Switzerland compared to the rest of Europe, just because. What’s your source? I just checked for an iPhone 14 Pro (base spec) CH: 1179.- FR: 1329 € DE: 1299 €
- sschueller 4y agoLooks like I was wrong. It has been a while since I checked. I guess the inflation in the rest of Europe really hit hard in comparison to Switzerland.
- InCityDreams 4y agoHow much did yours cost?
- itg 4y agoI'm pretty sure EU can have the "last word" here by blocking sales of iPhone in the EU. Apple has become an expert lately at malicious compliance.
- fckgw 4y agoThis particular Apple leaker does not have a great track record. They "leaked" a dual pill/hole camera design (and claimed to have actual photos) for the iPhone 14 that turned out not to be true. While I would say it's certainly possible it's not a guarantee. Apple doesn't have a MeFi program for their USB-C enabled iPads so enforcing one for the phones only doesn't really make sense.
- jshier 4y agoI can't speak to the leaker, but the 14 Pro does have separate pill and hole for the sensor area, it's just unified by the dynamic island to appear as one hole.
- jaywalk 4y agoThe design they leaked was accurate. The appearance of a single cutout is created by software.
- fwlr 4y agoIt’s actually a testament to the effectiveness of the dynamic island software. It’s some real genius, the fact that it changes in size so intelligently gives me the psychological perception that it could change to no size at all and thus it really feels like it isn’t there.
- silvestrov 4y ago(if this is true) it is like Apple is dead-set on destroying all the goodwill Apple has in the EU. This is one area where EU is really serious about making strong law and judgements.
- pseudosavant 4y agoSo long as I can finally settle on just USB-C for charging around the house I don't care. iPhones and the kids' old school iPads are the last non-USB-C device I have.
- mikestew 4y agoLucky you, with only two cables to keep around. Because of our Beats Studio headphones (created after Apple bought Beats, for the record), I get to tote around a micro USB cable in addition to Lightning and USB-C.
- lovehashbrowns 4y agoI have lots on USB-C, including Sony's WH-1000XM4 headphones, which I would recommend for staying on USB-C. :p My micro USB devices are camera battery chargers and my Shure MV7. And iPhone whatever the heck for Lightning, ugh. So close to all USB-C! If I'm traveling with my camera it can be at least 3 separate cables still.
- reiichiroh 4y agoYou can’t do any worse than the USB standards body
- bombcar 4y agoBluetooth says hi.
- shadowgovt 4y agoHonestly? Good. There's a whole thing about how crappy some manufacturing is on USB-C cables and peripherals. If Apple wants to put hurdles up to making a device work with their hardware, it'll require OEMs to actually test on Apple hardware instead of dumping crap on the market that doesn't work, and that's a win for Apple users. Worst-case scenario, Apple harms its own ecosystem by limiting hardware options and confusing users about why two physically-compatible products can't talk to each other. Best-case scenario, Apple gets to dodge some of the problems as USB-C marches boldly towards becoming the next Bluetooth.
- iLoveOncall 4y agoYeah it's good if it's a warning, not otherwise.
- manuelabeledo 4y agoUnpopular opinion here, but I wish Apple would enforce the use of USB-C power delivery, so either a cable works within the negotiated parameters, or it doesn't. It is a bit of a mess, but it is currently the best we have. Frankly, the fact that USB-IF almost released charging standards as an afterthought, was a huge mistake. Now we have extremely popular stuff (Raspberry Pi, Nintendo Switch) running on 20W or 40W chargers, which are non compliant.
- bombcar 4y agoI agree, I'd rather have the cables NOT WORK AT ALL (or popup some horrible error message first) rather than charge at some abysmally slow rate.
- Turing_Machine 4y ago> ather than charge at some abysmally slow rate Or (much) worse, catch fire.
- bombcar 4y agoI mean at least when it catches fire I know something's wrong ...
- rnk 4y agoThat feels like a theoretical problem that very rarely occurs in practice. I have had many USBC devices including Apple Max but many other Macs that take USBC at higher than 15 watts and I've never had a problem. There's just no reason for this apple attempt to stick on the wasted money train.
- Turing_Machine 4y agoI've definitely had off-brand charging cables get hot before.
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- nottorp 4y agoAren't the EU rules about just charging? Whatever they do about the data part is their problem and doesn't contradict any rules. As for charging, the USB consortium messed that stuff up so much that I'll just buy Apple cables for anything I want to fast charge, thank you.
- MarkusWandel 4y agoAs long as they let the phone charge with the same USB-C chargers as used for other gadgets. I have one older Apple product (a child's toy at this point) which simply says "Unsupported accessory" or such and refuses to charge through a particular generic Lightning cable (which another Apple gadget charges through just fine).
- rootusrootus 4y agoIf the cables I use for all of our iPads don't work with the new iPhone, I will be extremely surprised.
- LeanderK 4y agoWhat I don't get, maybe someone can explain, is why the USB-C hardware status is not communicated more. As I understood it, the phone should have all the information it needs to communicate to the user why the iPhone is not charging as fast as it should. I don't get why the user must trouble-shoot, can't the phone explain everything to him? E.g. you need a better cable or you need a better charger, including infos about where the bottleneck is and how fast it's currently being charged.
- jaywalk 4y agoI'd hope that Apple's existing USB-C stuff will work properly. I've only been buying Apple's USB-C chargers with USB-C to Lightning cables in anticipation of this move.
- rootusrootus 4y agoThat's what makes me think the rumor is bullshit. If we want to know how USB-C will work on the iPhone, we need not look any farther than how it works on iPads today.
- NekkoDroid 4y agoThe thing is: if you look at that we would also need to look at why Apple hasn't changed to USB-C on their iPhones yet while almost(?) everything else of theirs has changed years ago.
- swamp40 4y agoEven if Apple requires MFi certification on their USB C cables, China will just crack the cryptography and clone them. They cracked the Lightning chip in like a week. Then they will share the private key amongst all Chinese cable companies. It's hard to keep a private key safe inside a small chip when there are billions of dollars in cable sales on the line.
- Kirby64 4y agoDepending on how the security is implemented, it can be done robustly enough that 'China' will not be able to subvert it. There is no need for some sort of 'master' private key that would allow re-sharing and duplication like you state.
- xlii 4y agoUSB-C is a dumpster fire. I tried 10 different cables to try to hook up Stream Deck to MBP. None of it worked. Beside TB3 one they’re unhelpfully unmarked. The only one that worked was 5m Meta one but I don’t want to have a cable coil on my desk. I ordered another one - supposedly awesome and conformant for 25$. Nothing. So another one is en route to me. I gave up already though. It’s shameful that Elgato don’t provide neither precise information about requirement nor ensured compatible accessory. And supposedly enforcing USB-C was supposed to limit number of cables and waste…
- ianburrell 4y agoIs the problem the cables or the devices? USB-C is well specified and any non-junk cables should work as well. Some searching shows lots of Stream Deck owners having problems so the problem may be with the device. What kind of USB-C cables were you using? USB2, which is most charging cables, probably won't work. You likely need USB3 ones. I guess hard to tell just looking at random one but USB3 cables are shorter, thicker, and more expensive. You will probably have to buy one, I have a couple of USB3 cables and many charging ones. Where does the Stream Deck get its power? The Macbook Pro does provide power on USB-C ports but only some ports may provide full power. I think on newer ones all the ports do. The other potential problem is the power direction. Stream Deck has a battery and it is possible that Stream Deck is charging the MBP. I don't think it is possible to reverse direction in MBP; it really should be popup and app to do that. That is may by why USB-A adapters work.
- nemothekid 4y ago>USB-C is well specified and any non-junk cables should work as well. There is a Google engineer, Benson Leung, who's claim to fame is just reviewing cables. USB-C may be well specified, but it's up in the air if any cable you buy on amazon is actually up to spec.
- ianburrell 4y agoI think things have gotten better since he was testing. Manufacturers have gotten more experienced. There are more cables with USB-IF certification. Certificaton must be expensive since only some Anker cables are certified but they say all of them would pass. I guess I don't care about random Amazon cables since I buy brands I trust.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- diebeforei485 4y agoI wholeheartedly agree with this move.
- gumby 4y agoWhile I think this is perfectly possible, it's just as likely -- perhaps more so -- that this is a misunderstanding about charging and USB C emarkers in cables.
- indymike 4y agoOk, so I've had devices with USB-C connectors for five years including phones, tablets and laptops. I've only once had a problem with cables for charging and data connection even using the cheapest cable possible that I literally purchased at the Dollar Tree. Where I have had problems is USB-C -> HDMI adapters as there are multiple standards for both ends of the cable that may not work together. It makes getting the right device for the screen hard to do. Oh, and incidentally, cheap, unlicensed lightning cables are just as much of a thing as cheap unlicensed USB-C cables.
- the_gipsy 4y agoAnd it's not like HDMI is an issue with a phone.
- indymike 4y agoWell... for higher-end Android phones and tablets you can actually plug them into HDMI and use them like a desktop.
- nfriedly 4y agoIt's not even limited to high-end devices these days. The moto g100 launched at $400 (I got mine for $270), and it supports "Ready For", which is Motorola's version of Samsung Dex. Plug it into any standard USB-C hub, connect it to a screen, keyboard, and mouse, and you basically have a lightweight desktop PC. Connect a controller and it's a game console.
- ThatPlayer 4y agoMeanwhile Google still doesn't support it even on the Pixel 7 Pro.
- warp 4y agoApple MFi certified lightning to HDMI adapters exist, so I can definitely see USB-C to HDMI be an issue on phones for those that need it.
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- ben7799 4y agoGotta love apple fans of the type that would post on apple insider being all upset about possibly having to pay more for certified cables. I don't know, I've had a lot of trouble with USB-C cables already. Even devices that came with their own cable (some expensive) that turn out to be flaky cables. If you're spending the big bucks on Apple stuff why not get certified cables.
- rnk 4y agoI don't think that experience is universal. I bought lots of usbc cables from lots of different places and haven't had this issue. But I have bought cables certified for a certain amount of power etc. There is a huge danger in letting Apple get away with this ridiculous certified cable nonsense. It's just another money train for them. I hope the EU says it's a violation of their rules and that triggers them dropping this terrible idea.
- rootusrootus 4y agoI use regular old USB-C cables with all my Apple devices. Only my iPhone still uses Lightning. The notion that Apple is going to introduce a policy change at the last minute just for the iPhone is really weird.
- rootusrootus 4y agoI'm skeptical of this rumor. Apple has supported USB-C on MacBooks and iPads for years, the iPhone is almost the last major Apple device to get converted to USB-C. AirPods are still Lightning, but they're not computing devices to begin with. My expectation is USB-C on the iPhone will work exactly the same as it does with the rest of their devices today.
- wilg 4y agoNot only that, Apple shipped the first ever laptop with USB-C.
- JustSomeNobody 4y agoI think Apple seeds these rumors to get a feel for how the market will handle it as well as set expectations. By the time an iPhone will be released with a gimped USB-C port, people will be bored with arguing over it and have reached acceptance.
- rootusrootus 4y agoAre there examples of them doing this in the past? What would be the upside for them to do it now? How do they achieve 'acceptance' when users would notice the difference in charging speed every time they plugged in their phone and iPad?
- JustSomeNobody 4y ago> Are there examples of them doing this in the past? Would anyone know? > How do they achieve 'acceptance' when users would notice the difference in charging speed every time they plugged in their phone and iPad? Because by the time the iPhone drops with the gimped USB-C, people will just accept that that's the price to pay stick with Apple products.
- ChrisRR 4y agoNo chance that is happening. The average Apple user doesn't read HN, they're just your average joe who plugs their apple phone into their apple charger with their apple headphones and scrolls through tiktok Us nerds can scream and shout all we want but I don't think we'd ever make a dent in their sales
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- tiffanyh 4y agoConnector vs Data. Wasn't the intent of the EU ruling is to standardize on a common Connector. That same connector today already has like 10 different standards, just see below. How is what Apple is rumored to do any different? https://reviewed-com-res.cloudinary.com/image/fetch/s--XR4_eO_Y--/b_white,c_limit,cs_srgb,f_auto,fl_progressive.strip_profile,g_center,q_auto,w_792/https://reviewed-production.s3.amazonaws.com/attachment/4188e1601e07445e/USB-Logos-16806_PIC2-600.jpg https://reviewed-com-res.cloudinary.com/image/fetch/s--XR4_e...
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- rgbrenner 4y agoGood. Assuming they want to create a portless iPhone soon (which I think they should), nerfing usbc is a good move. Full usbc charges and transfers data faster than wireless… so if they allow that, portless is going to be a huge downgrade. Nerfing it at least keeps their options open.
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- davidhyde 4y agoI recon that Apple is doing this to mitigate the risk that cables that actually do work within spec would muddy the waters with cables that don’t. As mentioned elsewhere in the comments, usb-c and usb3 in general is a bit of a tyre fire and mostly just a race to the bottom. You can find tech out there that actually works but these products are outliers. The usb3 brand is garbage. Apple probably doesn’t want their user base to even have the opportunity to gamble on a cable that may work within spec so they cripple all non-approved cables. This obviously sucks for consumers, especially tech savvy ones, but I can see why Apple may want to take this approach.
- nikau 4y agoMeanwhile my six year old galaxy s8 presents a full desktop environment when a usbc hub is attached
- ChrisRR 4y agoThis is their MFI crap all over again. It made developing compatible bluetooth devices an arse if working at the bluetooth stack level