4 ms·

For some of the cases, it's just not worth the time and effort, even for that "old ass IP". If HBO/Warner/Discovery shows up asking to use your title and it tak

For some of the cases, it's just not worth the time and effort, even for that "old ass IP". If HBO/Warner/Discovery shows up asking to use your title and it takes a lawyer 20-40 hours to iron it out at $200/hr, what's the return? Is someone really going to buy a copy of Ms Pac because they saw it in the background of a zombie show? Some of the IP should have been a slam dunk. I'm surprised Williams/Midway was a hassle since Warner Interactive now owns most of those titles. For things like pinball with licensed titles, that's a huge mess. If you want a Bally Addams Family pin in your show you not only need to contact the slot machine company that owns the Bally pinball IP but you need to contact Paramount Studios, Anjelica Huston's agent, and the estate of the now deceased Raul Julia. Good luck with that.

KingMachiavelli 4y ago
The real question is why do you even need a license? I thought it was well established that you can show copyrighted images/text and trademarked images/text in context - i.e you can show beer and signage of real companies that exist in real life. I really don't understand the value in our currently level of IP law... like you said it often costs more paying lawyers to review contracts than the actual contract is worth.
- cosmotic 4y ago
  It might just be as simple as a defensive/precautionary maneuver to convert a slam dunk case into a triviality that could be decided in a default judgment. If you can get there blessing even if you don't need it, it's that much less risk.
- supermatt 4y ago
  You wouldn’t need a license, is the bottom line. It’s CLEARLY fair use to passively display arcade games in a fictional arcade setting, without infringing on the intent of the IP. Unfortunately, in this litigation-happy world we are becoming increasingly risk-averse. There was an article recently on how music is now “co-written” by the influences for that piece, as well as the influences for those influence pieces, etc - just to preempt these kind of legal challenges. It’s fucked up, and it needs to change.
  - actionfromafar 4y ago
    Wasn't it like this forever? Why otherwise all fake brands for cereal, beer and whatnot in movies?
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - supermatt 4y ago
      Someone else responded to you - but they seem to have now deleted it. Those fake brands are either as placeholders for product placement, or the art directors just wanted to have some more fun/control :) Some products - like beer, cigarettes, etc - likely need to be changed due to advertising restrictions on alcohol/tobacco/etc
      - joezydeco 4y ago
        There's a myriad of shows where company trademarks are blanked out or modified to something else. Seinfeld is full of this. And I've seen countless shows where actors are using MacBooks or iMacs and the Apple logo on the case is taped over or modified with a different shape. It's not a placeholder for product advertising. Either Apple said no, or wanted some other control over the show's content and oversight on the Mac and the producers refused.
        supermatt 4y ago
        > Either Apple said no, or wanted some other control over the show's content and oversight on the Mac and the producers refused. No. Apple have absolutely no right to dictate that. It would be fair use to use a commercially available laptop to denote a laptop in a TV show. They could ONLY contest if it was to dilute their mark through misuse. A product being displayed and used in its intended way is - by definition - not misuse. It is possible that they greeked the product to appease a competitor. e.g. masking out apple logos if they are sponsored by samsung, etc. But as I already mentioned in a previous comment: we live it a litigation-happy world, and the threat of a court case can be enough to scare some producers - even if it would be unjustified.
- mindslight 4y ago
  I agree with where you're coming from, but this is likely to be backed up by industry norms, standard production contracts, guild/union requirements, and informal black balling. Imaginary property maximalists living their best lives /s.
- joezydeco 4y ago
  Many of the things you use as examples are trademarks. Beer signs involve company logos. Beer signs ARE company logos. I'll give you a real world example. Madonna Ciccone, famous pop singer, published a coffee table book called Sex in 1992. The book, natch, is filled with explicit images and words. One of the pictures featured Madonna, semi-nude, being sexually penetrated on top of a Williams Electronics "Taxi" pinball machine. The entire machine is visible including a very prominent Williams logo. Williams took Madonna to court over it and she quietly settled before it got to a judge. Williams had a very strong argument that their trademarks were being used in a manner contradictory to their product - a family-friendly pinball machine. This kind of imagery is damaging to their brand. And, of course, no permission was requested by Madonna. This was a slam dunk case. You need permission to do things like this. IP holders get all kinds of legal opinions involved when permission is requested. What exactly are you doing with that Ms Pac machine? Is it just background filler, or is a major character going to be beheaded on top of it? It's not just a matter of "can we use this?" but a question of "HOW is this going to be used?"
boomboomsubban 4y ago
>? Is someone really going to buy a copy of Ms Pac because they saw it in the background of a zombie show? I bet Steam could release a deal called "Games featured in the hit show The Last of Us" and it'd sell well. The videogame version of an OST.
- b112 4y ago
  They could! But was this an inked deal when negotiating? Or even mentioned? And now you have made it more complex, because "Games featured" with only Ms Pacman sucks, so you need to get a variety of stakeholders on board, so more meetings, etc. And who codes the pinball games? Engines exist, but...
dfxm12 4y ago
Is someone really going to buy a copy of Ms Pac because they saw it in the background of a zombie show? Do you think the obvious answer is no? Kate Bush's resurgence during the Stranger Things run was so recent...

KingMachiavelli 4y ago

The real question is why do you even need a license? I thought it was well established that you can show copyrighted images/text and trademarked images/text in context - i.e you can show beer and signage of real companies that exist in real life. I really don't understand the value in our currently level of IP law... like you said it often costs more paying lawyers to review contracts than the actual contract is worth.

cosmotic 4y ago
It might just be as simple as a defensive/precautionary maneuver to convert a slam dunk case into a triviality that could be decided in a default judgment. If you can get there blessing even if you don't need it, it's that much less risk.
supermatt 4y ago
You wouldn’t need a license, is the bottom line. It’s CLEARLY fair use to passively display arcade games in a fictional arcade setting, without infringing on the intent of the IP. Unfortunately, in this litigation-happy world we are becoming increasingly risk-averse. There was an article recently on how music is now “co-written” by the influences for that piece, as well as the influences for those influence pieces, etc - just to preempt these kind of legal challenges. It’s fucked up, and it needs to change.
- actionfromafar 4y ago
  Wasn't it like this forever? Why otherwise all fake brands for cereal, beer and whatnot in movies?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - supermatt 4y ago
    Someone else responded to you - but they seem to have now deleted it. Those fake brands are either as placeholders for product placement, or the art directors just wanted to have some more fun/control :) Some products - like beer, cigarettes, etc - likely need to be changed due to advertising restrictions on alcohol/tobacco/etc
    - joezydeco 4y ago
      There's a myriad of shows where company trademarks are blanked out or modified to something else. Seinfeld is full of this. And I've seen countless shows where actors are using MacBooks or iMacs and the Apple logo on the case is taped over or modified with a different shape. It's not a placeholder for product advertising. Either Apple said no, or wanted some other control over the show's content and oversight on the Mac and the producers refused.
      - supermatt 4y ago
        > Either Apple said no, or wanted some other control over the show's content and oversight on the Mac and the producers refused. No. Apple have absolutely no right to dictate that. It would be fair use to use a commercially available laptop to denote a laptop in a TV show. They could ONLY contest if it was to dilute their mark through misuse. A product being displayed and used in its intended way is - by definition - not misuse. It is possible that they greeked the product to appease a competitor. e.g. masking out apple logos if they are sponsored by samsung, etc. But as I already mentioned in a previous comment: we live it a litigation-happy world, and the threat of a court case can be enough to scare some producers - even if it would be unjustified.
mindslight 4y ago
I agree with where you're coming from, but this is likely to be backed up by industry norms, standard production contracts, guild/union requirements, and informal black balling. Imaginary property maximalists living their best lives /s.
joezydeco 4y ago
Many of the things you use as examples are trademarks. Beer signs involve company logos. Beer signs ARE company logos. I'll give you a real world example. Madonna Ciccone, famous pop singer, published a coffee table book called Sex in 1992. The book, natch, is filled with explicit images and words. One of the pictures featured Madonna, semi-nude, being sexually penetrated on top of a Williams Electronics "Taxi" pinball machine. The entire machine is visible including a very prominent Williams logo. Williams took Madonna to court over it and she quietly settled before it got to a judge. Williams had a very strong argument that their trademarks were being used in a manner contradictory to their product - a family-friendly pinball machine. This kind of imagery is damaging to their brand. And, of course, no permission was requested by Madonna. This was a slam dunk case. You need permission to do things like this. IP holders get all kinds of legal opinions involved when permission is requested. What exactly are you doing with that Ms Pac machine? Is it just background filler, or is a major character going to be beheaded on top of it? It's not just a matter of "can we use this?" but a question of "HOW is this going to be used?"

boomboomsubban 4y ago

>? Is someone really going to buy a copy of Ms Pac because they saw it in the background of a zombie show? I bet Steam could release a deal called "Games featured in the hit show The Last of Us" and it'd sell well. The videogame version of an OST.

b112 4y ago
They could! But was this an inked deal when negotiating? Or even mentioned? And now you have made it more complex, because "Games featured" with only Ms Pacman sucks, so you need to get a variety of stakeholders on board, so more meetings, etc. And who codes the pinball games? Engines exist, but...

dfxm12 4y ago

Is someone really going to buy a copy of Ms Pac because they saw it in the background of a zombie show? Do you think the obvious answer is no? Kate Bush's resurgence during the Stranger Things run was so recent...