3 ms·

Van Der Waals Force

3 points by andrewfromx 4y ago

andrewfromx 4y ago
Here's what Eliezer Yudkowsky said recently: "It emails out some instructions to one of those labs that'll synthesize DNA and synthesize proteins from the DNA and get some proteins mailed to a you. A hapless human somewhere who gets paid a bunch of money to mix together some stuff they got in the mail, you know like smart people will not do this for any sum of money, but many people are not smart. They build the ribosome but the ribosome that builds things out of covalently bonded diamondoid instead of proteins folding up and held together by Van Der Waals forces builds tiny diamondoid bacteria. The diamondoid bacteria replicate using atmospheric carbon hydrogen oxygen nitrogen and sunlight and you know a couple of days later everybody on earth falls over dead in the same second. That's the disaster scenario if it's as smart as I am. If it's smarter it might think of a better way to do things but it can at least think of that." Can someone explain Van Der Waals forces? From https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34972026 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34972026
- dekhn 4y ago
  Sure. You're probably familiar with the concept of atomic bonds, most people learn about covalent (the bonds drawn as lines between atoms like C-H) or ionic (smashing the two elements together NaCl). Both those are "strong" bond types that typically involve an electron from one atom ending up associating with the other atom as well. Van der waals are a different type of force- also known as London Dispersion, and have more to do with subtle arrangements of the electrons around an atom, that provides small attractive force between two atoms. When the atoms get too close, though, they sort of bounce up against each other, and can't get any closer. The subtle arrangement typicall has to do with what's known as a "dipole"- an asymmetry in the distribution of charge. Proteins "fold up" to their unique shapes at least partly due to vdw forces (electrostatics and covalents also contribute). Without vdw, they would be floppy and just sort of bouncing around instead of forming compact globules. These intermolecular forces aren't perfectly well understood but we have lots of data about them and can typically simulate them fairly easily by modelling atoms as point particles that interact with neighboring atoms via a function of distance between them, and their hydrophobicity (when atoms are attracted via vdw it typically pushes water out of the way). What he said doesn't really make sense, and is the sort of thing people who have too much time and money and brain cells come up with but isn't a well-articulated or probable risk. It's closer to a science fiction story than speculative fiction.
  - andrewfromx 4y ago
    ah thank you! There was another comment: "That is Yudkowsky's M.O. in that, like a 419 letter, he inserts a lot of garbage into everything he writes designed to drive away real rational thinkers because he is looking for followers for a cult that is some mash-up of L. Ron Hubbard, Teilhard de Chardin, and H. P. Lovecraft. That's the whole point of Sequences: the smart people realize it is crap, the not-so-smart people struggle with it and think it is profound." I'm sorry to admit I thought it was profound :)
    - gus_massa 4y ago
      I agree with the GP. More details. The story you quoted makes no sense and has a lot of small errors that is difficult to know where to start. One important thing is that you can't just mix some powers and get a "bacteria". They have lot of internal structure and layers of different materials that must be in the right position. It makes less sense than the worst case scenario in https://xkcd.com/748/ https://xkcd.com/748/

3 points by andrewfromx 4y ago

Here's what Eliezer Yudkowsky said recently: "It emails out some instructions to one of those labs that'll synthesize DNA and synthesize proteins from the DNA and get some proteins mailed to a you. A hapless human somewhere who gets paid a bunch of money to mix together some stuff they got in the mail, you know like smart people will not do this for any sum of money, but many people are not smart. They build the ribosome but the ribosome that builds things out of covalently bonded diamondoid instead of proteins folding up and held together by Van Der Waals forces builds tiny diamondoid bacteria. The diamondoid bacteria replicate using atmospheric carbon hydrogen oxygen nitrogen and sunlight and you know a couple of days later everybody on earth falls over dead in the same second. That's the disaster scenario if it's as smart as I am. If it's smarter it might think of a better way to do things but it can at least think of that." Can someone explain Van Der Waals forces? From https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34972026 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34972026

dekhn 4y ago
Sure. You're probably familiar with the concept of atomic bonds, most people learn about covalent (the bonds drawn as lines between atoms like C-H) or ionic (smashing the two elements together NaCl). Both those are "strong" bond types that typically involve an electron from one atom ending up associating with the other atom as well. Van der waals are a different type of force- also known as London Dispersion, and have more to do with subtle arrangements of the electrons around an atom, that provides small attractive force between two atoms. When the atoms get too close, though, they sort of bounce up against each other, and can't get any closer. The subtle arrangement typicall has to do with what's known as a "dipole"- an asymmetry in the distribution of charge. Proteins "fold up" to their unique shapes at least partly due to vdw forces (electrostatics and covalents also contribute). Without vdw, they would be floppy and just sort of bouncing around instead of forming compact globules. These intermolecular forces aren't perfectly well understood but we have lots of data about them and can typically simulate them fairly easily by modelling atoms as point particles that interact with neighboring atoms via a function of distance between them, and their hydrophobicity (when atoms are attracted via vdw it typically pushes water out of the way). What he said doesn't really make sense, and is the sort of thing people who have too much time and money and brain cells come up with but isn't a well-articulated or probable risk. It's closer to a science fiction story than speculative fiction.
- andrewfromx 4y ago
  ah thank you! There was another comment: "That is Yudkowsky's M.O. in that, like a 419 letter, he inserts a lot of garbage into everything he writes designed to drive away real rational thinkers because he is looking for followers for a cult that is some mash-up of L. Ron Hubbard, Teilhard de Chardin, and H. P. Lovecraft. That's the whole point of Sequences: the smart people realize it is crap, the not-so-smart people struggle with it and think it is profound." I'm sorry to admit I thought it was profound :)
  - gus_massa 4y ago
    I agree with the GP. More details. The story you quoted makes no sense and has a lot of small errors that is difficult to know where to start. One important thing is that you can't just mix some powers and get a "bacteria". They have lot of internal structure and layers of different materials that must be in the right position. It makes less sense than the worst case scenario in https://xkcd.com/748/ https://xkcd.com/748/