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After being in the crypto space for a while, and thinking a lot about the problem of tracing money, I've come to the conclusion that the system I'd prefer would

by mihaic 4y ago

After being in the crypto space for a while, and thinking a lot about the problem of tracing money, I've come to the conclusion that the system I'd prefer would be a hybrid. Everyone needs a quota of anonymous spending, say $50/day, $1000/ month and anything after that is public on government ledger. I've mentioned this to a few friends, who've always called it dystopian, yet all alternate systems seems to be worse in terms of illegal abuse.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> a quota of anonymous spending, say $50/day, $1000/ month and anything after that is public on government ledger You're describing cash + digital money.
- hesdeadjim 4y ago
  Yea, but cash isn’t very web3 now is it.
  - Scoundreller 4y ago
    Shhhh, no talk about our web4 plans
- paxys 4y ago
  1. This system is too complicated and messy, we need to throw it away and rebuild it from scratch. 2. This new system is so simple and works perfectly. 3. Hmm, it doesn't account for this one problem. Doesn't matter, we can just iterate and add in a special case. Repeat 3 a few hundred/thousand times. 4. This system is too complicated and messy, we need to throw it away and rebuild it from scratch.
  - mihaic 4y ago
    Yeah, I think the crypto keyword threw you off, I actually dislike the entire web3 space. I also do see change as inevitable, as that's what humans usually do. That's why I think we'd need to have actively describe some desired properties of whatever money will be in the future. Partial anonymity is one of them, but it's actually being eroded now: you can't order an Uber with cash or book an airbnb for a night with cash.
- mihaic 4y ago
  Completely agree, cash is great, am not aiming to reinvent the bus! There is though a push to remove it, and it's a bit clearer when we aknowledge the goal.
luckylion 4y ago
> yet all alternate systems seems to be worse in terms of illegal abuse worse than that system, sure. Worse compared to a fascist state that has near total control over everyone? I don't think it's clear that tax evasion and black market deals are worse than that, the scale is just different. China is much deeper in technology than the Soviet Union ever was. Imagine what Stalin had done with China's abilities in 2023, I think accepting Oligarchs, tax evasion and Drug Cartels is a fine trade off to avoid that.
- comfypotato 4y ago
  It’s not either or in an all or nothing sense, and it’s not either or necessarily either. There’s a very appropriate comment on another sub-thread pointing out that privacy and corruption aren’t necessarily linked. We need to balance as we progress towards a more private and less corrupt world.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > don't think it's clear that tax evasion and black market deals are worse than that The paper's original context is the War in Ukraine. That doesn't mean we shred up our Bill of Rights. But the counterfactual is starker than tax evasion and cocaine naughties.
  - from 4y ago
    The other context which the authors and all the human rights groups who complain about this stuff ignore is that strict application of the AML laws results in mass derisking and the wholesale exclusion of entire industries and even countries from the financial system because banks do not want to risk the fines. Several major Caribbean banks are constantly on the verge of losing correspondent relationships despite doing basically everything the FATF asked that they could afford. Non banks ATMs (which aren’t even considered MSBs), check cashers and a whole host of other businesses are de facto excluded from major US banks right now. I think the desire to “do something” about Russia has made any sort of cost benefit analysis go right out the window.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
MadSudaca 4y ago
You haven't considered another option: make legal the illegal. At some point you have to ask yourself, how much liberties are you willing to give away for the feeling of safety.

by mihaic 4y ago

JumpCrisscross 4y ago

> a quota of anonymous spending, say $50/day, $1000/ month and anything after that is public on government ledger You're describing cash + digital money.

hesdeadjim 4y ago
Yea, but cash isn’t very web3 now is it.
- Scoundreller 4y ago
  Shhhh, no talk about our web4 plans
paxys 4y ago
1. This system is too complicated and messy, we need to throw it away and rebuild it from scratch. 2. This new system is so simple and works perfectly. 3. Hmm, it doesn't account for this one problem. Doesn't matter, we can just iterate and add in a special case. Repeat 3 a few hundred/thousand times. 4. This system is too complicated and messy, we need to throw it away and rebuild it from scratch.
- mihaic 4y ago
  Yeah, I think the crypto keyword threw you off, I actually dislike the entire web3 space. I also do see change as inevitable, as that's what humans usually do. That's why I think we'd need to have actively describe some desired properties of whatever money will be in the future. Partial anonymity is one of them, but it's actually being eroded now: you can't order an Uber with cash or book an airbnb for a night with cash.
mihaic 4y ago
Completely agree, cash is great, am not aiming to reinvent the bus! There is though a push to remove it, and it's a bit clearer when we aknowledge the goal.

luckylion 4y ago

> yet all alternate systems seems to be worse in terms of illegal abuse worse than that system, sure. Worse compared to a fascist state that has near total control over everyone? I don't think it's clear that tax evasion and black market deals are worse than that, the scale is just different. China is much deeper in technology than the Soviet Union ever was. Imagine what Stalin had done with China's abilities in 2023, I think accepting Oligarchs, tax evasion and Drug Cartels is a fine trade off to avoid that.

comfypotato 4y ago
It’s not either or in an all or nothing sense, and it’s not either or necessarily either. There’s a very appropriate comment on another sub-thread pointing out that privacy and corruption aren’t necessarily linked. We need to balance as we progress towards a more private and less corrupt world.
JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> don't think it's clear that tax evasion and black market deals are worse than that The paper's original context is the War in Ukraine. That doesn't mean we shred up our Bill of Rights. But the counterfactual is starker than tax evasion and cocaine naughties.
- from 4y ago
  The other context which the authors and all the human rights groups who complain about this stuff ignore is that strict application of the AML laws results in mass derisking and the wholesale exclusion of entire industries and even countries from the financial system because banks do not want to risk the fines. Several major Caribbean banks are constantly on the verge of losing correspondent relationships despite doing basically everything the FATF asked that they could afford. Non banks ATMs (which aren’t even considered MSBs), check cashers and a whole host of other businesses are de facto excluded from major US banks right now. I think the desire to “do something” about Russia has made any sort of cost benefit analysis go right out the window.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

MadSudaca 4y ago

You haven't considered another option: make legal the illegal. At some point you have to ask yourself, how much liberties are you willing to give away for the feeling of safety.