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My guess is you live in the West. There are other cultures in the world, where there is still a strong sense of informal community. Where you can just walk to a

My guess is you live in the West. There are other cultures in the world, where there is still a strong sense of informal community. Where you can just walk to a friend or a relative's house unannounced for a cup of tea, without thinking all the time if it would inconvenience them. It feels really amazing to have the option to do that. I moved to the US (Bay Area) about 10 years ago after having spent much of my youth elsewhere, and to this day, I haven't been able adjust to the lack of informal social interactions compared to where I'm from. I really tried as well to see if it's me who is not able to fit in. However, after a while I realized it's just a cultural difference. It's a way of life that has existed for several decades, which has its own benefits. To me, US seems like an amazing place when you're in the apprentice/work phase of your life (20 - 45?). However, as I grow older, there are other things I have begun to value more, and one of the top ones is authentic human connection. I hope as US becomes more and more diverse, people from other cultures can add the good things they bring, instead of just trying to fit in to the default cultural model.

throw_pm23 4y ago
When they said "the future is here, just not evenly distributed" -- it unfortunately applied to social dystopia, just as well as technical advances. So whatever culture you are from, give it a decade or two and it will likely catch up with the US over this. To see even further into the future, look at Japan.
- curiousfiddler 4y ago
  Sure, just to be very clear, I'm not boasting about this. And I do certainly hope that the exact opposite happens as we move forward to the next generation. I'm certainly hopeful.
- danenania 4y ago
  It's not clear that the US is actually further in the future in this sense than Western/Northern Europe. Demographically speaking, we are behind them and headed in their direction, so it could well be the case that we will follow suit in de-prioritizing economic growth relative to quality of life and social cohesion. If you look at the political leanings of the younger vs. older generations, it seems reasonably likely. Japan is also a complex case. While there are the well-known issues with loneliness, suicide, overwork, etc., it also beats the US in most quality of life metrics. It has very high social trust, low inequality, very low crime, affordable housing, universal healthcare, and so on.
  - trieste92 4y ago
    > It has very high social trust, low inequality, very low crime, affordable housing, universal healthcare, and so on. I wonder how long these metrics will last. Social trust is definitely a new one that's been added after mid 2010s
- ulchar 4y ago
  Even if what you say is true, it's not guaranteed that future societies will forever be in this age of loneliness. Technology has moved fast and there will be growing pains, but I don't see evidence that we are incapable of changing culturally. These conversations are happening around the world, many people are unhappy living their lives in technological bubbles and many want things to change.
  - dorchadas 4y ago
    I do, and I think Neil Postman called it out even in 1992. We've surrendered our culture to technology, and it's going to be dammed hard getting it back. Especially once LLM's can be trained to manipulate you at the deepest psychological levels. We're in for a bumpy ride, and I don't see any way of escaping it.
- uoaei 4y ago
  I heard it said once that the future will arrive at the same time for everyone, but the effects will be unevenly distributed. For the simple fact that 1) some countries are more powerful than others and 2) "effects" to one country can be merely "externalities" to another.
skilled 4y ago
You're right, I'm from the West. I spent 5 years in Asia in my 20s, which is where a lot of the wisdom comes from. I've lived with Balinese families, and I've spent a lot of time in rural areas in Cambodia, Thailand, and India. I know exactly what you mean when you say informal communities. It was one of the things I spoke about the most to the people around me when I got back. I could literally turn up at my friends house uninvited and make myself breakfast in the morning or grab some things I need for a long trip. I'd regularly get invited to all kinds of events, weddings, gatherings, and it all culminates in such a flowing state that you really get to enjoy being you as a person. I miss it. I never had to look for anyone, because from the moment I entered a village to rent a house/apartment, I became part of that community.
- curiousfiddler 4y ago
  I wonder if there are ways in which part of the same experience can be created here. Social interactions seem to be a primal need for us.
  - skilled 4y ago
    I'm going to be quite honest, but I do believe what holds together the countries I mentioned is their faith, which is Hinduism and Buddhism respectively. And both of these faiths are not widely accepted in the West, but not for reasons most people think. It's a way of life, and requires immense structure to have the support of the citizens who actually live in the said country. And for most of Southeast Asia, it works. It is as clear as the sky above can be. But as someone already mentioned, what is happening here in the West is definitely making its way in the East towards the new generation. It's phones, it's flashy clothing, materialism. I definitely saw a lot of that too, and many parents I spoke to (which was quite a few over the years) - everyone said the same thing, they're frustrated that the children are going in a direction that bears no fruit for the mind.
    - jimbokun 4y ago
      I’m not sure if it’s the specific faith that matters. Much of the sense of community being discussed was provided in the West by Christian churches until recently. Just requires a shared belief and value system of some sort compatible with building communities.
lastofus 4y ago
Out of curiosity, which cultures have this strong sense of informal community? It sounds kind of great.
- pelagicAustral 4y ago
  This is very common in South America, although not as present in large cities. I spend some time in the Maghreb and they also have this trait.
  - aflag 4y ago
    I'd consider south america as part of the west. I'm from Brazil and I'd never just pop in a friend's house without being invited over. I suppose if you live in a small town that could happen. But I do think americans do that in small towns too. Before the smart phone I think it was less odd to pop in if you were in the area, but with phones, I feel like anywhere I lived people would at the very least send a message.
- quickthrower2 4y ago
  Maybe I misremember but the UK seemed more like this in 80s / 90s. The part about just turning up. Not so much th extended family / weddings type stuff. I think the mobile phone (original, not just smart phone) killed it to some extent as you would arrange things on the phone and not pop in.
  - SoftTalker 4y ago
    If you're going back that far, "popping in" was not uncommon in the US either. Yes mobile tech has contributed to reduction in unannounced visits. With the ability and expectation that you can contact anyone at any time and make or change plans, doing anything unannounced has become unexpected. It used to be much more normal.
    - SamPatt 4y ago
      Agreed. I grew up in a semi-rural area in the US in the 90s and no one in our community thought twice about just showing up. This sometimes still happened within the past decade in rural Virginia (my family owned a farm there). Neighbor farmers would stop by once a week or so and just chat, usually still sitting in their truck. Seemed like they were on their way somewhere and saw us outside so they'd pull over to talk.
jimbokun 4y ago
My parents, who still live in the same small US town I grew up in, still live this way. Relatives who still live in the area, and random friends made over decades, will randomly drop by to say hello. This is especially good for my Dad, who due to health issues has very restricted mobility. I know his mental health would be much worse without this dynamic. But in the city where I live, that’s not really possible. Friendly with neighbors and enjoy talking to them, but inviting myself for a tea or coffee isn’t really a thing. I do have friend groups and support, especially through my church. But it’s not the same as what you describe or what my parents still have.
notmindthegap 4y ago
The US is a country of immigrants who for the most part came here because they valued the individual over the community. The individualism lives in the deepest roots of our culture. As a child of immigrants who was born and grew up in the US, I feel the same way you do the older I get and have been seriously considering a move abroad because of it. Further, it feels like the only basis of a shared culture, our basic political ideals, is now up for question. So if it isn't faith, ethnicity, etc, then what is actually binding us together?
- grugagag 4y ago
  > The US is a country of immigrants who for the most part came here because they valued the individual over the community. Not enirely true, many immigrants came for better or better perceived economic opportunities and many continue to have strong but closed communities. Their children, the second generation immigrants allign themselves closer with US culture and values leaving behind communities for more individual values.
  - notmindthegap 4y ago
    The very act of leaving a community for better economic opportunities abroad is a demonstration of one's relative values, even if there is a hope to eventually reestablish that sense of community at some point.
- BowBun 4y ago
  > The US is a country of immigrants who for the most part came here because they valued the individual over the community I disagree with that statement, despite agreeing with the following: > The individualism lives in the deepest roots of our culture. There's a plethora of reasons people come here: freedom to express themselves, security, financial opportunity because they're literally living in squalor elsewhere, etc. I don't think a majority of people came because they _wanted_ individualism. They wanted to improve their situation and came to a country that had a pretty good marketing spiel. Also if you look at immigrant communities in the US, they tend to be much closer than ones that have been here for generations (with exceptions). They create the community you claim is rejected when they come to the USA. The most active communities I've witnessed here are the Asian, Hispanic, and African social circles built around the culture that they left behind in their home countries. So I don't think your argument about immigrants leaving = individualism holds.
proc0 4y ago
> I hope as US becomes more and more diverse, people from other cultures can add the good things they bring, instead of just trying to fit in to the default cultural model. While I agree on the broader point, there is a bias here that I think is worth noting. There is no inherently good or bad cultural practice in this context. It's just a relative difference that of course if you're not used to it, feels uncomfortable. I think it's not hard to see how the flip scenario is also true, people who grow up with more formal and structured social interactions would feel uncomfortable in a culture that has a different social dynamic.
- freetinker 4y ago
  Having lived in both cultures, I echo this. It's about tradeoffs. The beauty of US individualism is that it allows the space to go within, practice self-inquiry. A side effect that could be loneliness.
NiagaraThistle 4y ago
"Where you can just walk to a friend or a relative's house unannounced for a cup of tea, without thinking all the time if it would inconvenience them." I really miss this. I have lived in the US my whole life but my father and much of my family is from the UK. We would always go over other people's houses unannounced when I was young and they always were excited to see us and never inconvenienced. Compare this to my mother's family (born and raised in the US but by Italian immigrants) and it was another story: you had to call ahead and were typically given a time to be in and out. Fast forward to today, and people think I'm the weird one when I say, let's just "pop in" instead of calling or texting. Except for my parents and sisters, it is completely unheard of to ust pop in or have someone pop in unannounced. My wife gets loads of laughs and shocked expressions when she tells friends and coworkers that me and my family don't call each other ahead of time to visit. It's a much different society today, but i think (hope?) the more people realize lonliness can (in some ways) be avoided by just visiting each other, I think this trend will reverse itself.
- curiousfiddler 4y ago
  I really do hope. Sometimes, just short visits help you get a sense of community. And slight inconvenience is ok I feel, it is the cost of building/maintaining a relationship :)
ROTMetro 4y ago
I grew up in Santa Cruz, went to University over the hill in the Bay Area, and financially had to move away well into my child raising years. I haven't been able to adjust to the lack of informal social interactions where I am now compared to back there. Crazy to think either 1. Things have changed significantly back home or 2. Moving changes our social networks/relationships. My parents informal community in Santa Cruz was non-existent (we moved there in the late 70s). Mine having grown up there were huge In Santa Cruz I left my garage unlocked so friends could drop off/pick up their surfboards at all hours (the tide cares nothing about the construct of time). Friends literally coming into our house in the early A.M. unannounced while we slept to get/leave their boards.
trieste92 4y ago
> I moved to the US (Bay Area) about 10 years ago after having spent much of my youth elsewhere, and to this day, I haven't been able adjust to the lack of informal social interactions compared to where I'm from. I really tried as well to see if it's me who is not able to fit In the same boat. In HS and college, would have somewhat frequent get togethers and then COVID came and ruined it Idk if the bay area is just like this or if I'm just going through a phase. It's probably just me
- curiousfiddler 4y ago
  I would think Bay Area might be better than other places given the diversity. I spent a couple of years in North Carolina before moving here, and that experience was not good for me
0xcafefood 4y ago
> I hope as US becomes more and more diverse, people from other cultures can add the good things they bring, instead of just trying to fit in to the default cultural model. The book "Bowling Alone" [1] make the case that diversity actually increases atomization, rather than increases it. This lines up with casual observation too. As the US has become an increasingly pluralistic country, social capital has diminished remarkably. [1] https://www.google.com/books/edition/Bowling_Alone_Revised_and_Updated/C7cCEAAAQBAJ https://www.google.com/books/edition/Bowling_Alone_Revised_a...

throw_pm23 4y ago

When they said "the future is here, just not evenly distributed" -- it unfortunately applied to social dystopia, just as well as technical advances. So whatever culture you are from, give it a decade or two and it will likely catch up with the US over this. To see even further into the future, look at Japan.

curiousfiddler 4y ago
Sure, just to be very clear, I'm not boasting about this. And I do certainly hope that the exact opposite happens as we move forward to the next generation. I'm certainly hopeful.
danenania 4y ago
It's not clear that the US is actually further in the future in this sense than Western/Northern Europe. Demographically speaking, we are behind them and headed in their direction, so it could well be the case that we will follow suit in de-prioritizing economic growth relative to quality of life and social cohesion. If you look at the political leanings of the younger vs. older generations, it seems reasonably likely. Japan is also a complex case. While there are the well-known issues with loneliness, suicide, overwork, etc., it also beats the US in most quality of life metrics. It has very high social trust, low inequality, very low crime, affordable housing, universal healthcare, and so on.
- trieste92 4y ago
  > It has very high social trust, low inequality, very low crime, affordable housing, universal healthcare, and so on. I wonder how long these metrics will last. Social trust is definitely a new one that's been added after mid 2010s
ulchar 4y ago
Even if what you say is true, it's not guaranteed that future societies will forever be in this age of loneliness. Technology has moved fast and there will be growing pains, but I don't see evidence that we are incapable of changing culturally. These conversations are happening around the world, many people are unhappy living their lives in technological bubbles and many want things to change.
- dorchadas 4y ago
  I do, and I think Neil Postman called it out even in 1992. We've surrendered our culture to technology, and it's going to be dammed hard getting it back. Especially once LLM's can be trained to manipulate you at the deepest psychological levels. We're in for a bumpy ride, and I don't see any way of escaping it.
uoaei 4y ago
I heard it said once that the future will arrive at the same time for everyone, but the effects will be unevenly distributed. For the simple fact that 1) some countries are more powerful than others and 2) "effects" to one country can be merely "externalities" to another.

skilled 4y ago

You're right, I'm from the West. I spent 5 years in Asia in my 20s, which is where a lot of the wisdom comes from. I've lived with Balinese families, and I've spent a lot of time in rural areas in Cambodia, Thailand, and India. I know exactly what you mean when you say informal communities. It was one of the things I spoke about the most to the people around me when I got back. I could literally turn up at my friends house uninvited and make myself breakfast in the morning or grab some things I need for a long trip. I'd regularly get invited to all kinds of events, weddings, gatherings, and it all culminates in such a flowing state that you really get to enjoy being you as a person. I miss it. I never had to look for anyone, because from the moment I entered a village to rent a house/apartment, I became part of that community.

curiousfiddler 4y ago
I wonder if there are ways in which part of the same experience can be created here. Social interactions seem to be a primal need for us.
- skilled 4y ago
  I'm going to be quite honest, but I do believe what holds together the countries I mentioned is their faith, which is Hinduism and Buddhism respectively. And both of these faiths are not widely accepted in the West, but not for reasons most people think. It's a way of life, and requires immense structure to have the support of the citizens who actually live in the said country. And for most of Southeast Asia, it works. It is as clear as the sky above can be. But as someone already mentioned, what is happening here in the West is definitely making its way in the East towards the new generation. It's phones, it's flashy clothing, materialism. I definitely saw a lot of that too, and many parents I spoke to (which was quite a few over the years) - everyone said the same thing, they're frustrated that the children are going in a direction that bears no fruit for the mind.
  - jimbokun 4y ago
    I’m not sure if it’s the specific faith that matters. Much of the sense of community being discussed was provided in the West by Christian churches until recently. Just requires a shared belief and value system of some sort compatible with building communities.

lastofus 4y ago

Out of curiosity, which cultures have this strong sense of informal community? It sounds kind of great.

pelagicAustral 4y ago
This is very common in South America, although not as present in large cities. I spend some time in the Maghreb and they also have this trait.
- aflag 4y ago
  I'd consider south america as part of the west. I'm from Brazil and I'd never just pop in a friend's house without being invited over. I suppose if you live in a small town that could happen. But I do think americans do that in small towns too. Before the smart phone I think it was less odd to pop in if you were in the area, but with phones, I feel like anywhere I lived people would at the very least send a message.
quickthrower2 4y ago
Maybe I misremember but the UK seemed more like this in 80s / 90s. The part about just turning up. Not so much th extended family / weddings type stuff. I think the mobile phone (original, not just smart phone) killed it to some extent as you would arrange things on the phone and not pop in.
- SoftTalker 4y ago
  If you're going back that far, "popping in" was not uncommon in the US either. Yes mobile tech has contributed to reduction in unannounced visits. With the ability and expectation that you can contact anyone at any time and make or change plans, doing anything unannounced has become unexpected. It used to be much more normal.
  - SamPatt 4y ago
    Agreed. I grew up in a semi-rural area in the US in the 90s and no one in our community thought twice about just showing up. This sometimes still happened within the past decade in rural Virginia (my family owned a farm there). Neighbor farmers would stop by once a week or so and just chat, usually still sitting in their truck. Seemed like they were on their way somewhere and saw us outside so they'd pull over to talk.

jimbokun 4y ago

My parents, who still live in the same small US town I grew up in, still live this way. Relatives who still live in the area, and random friends made over decades, will randomly drop by to say hello. This is especially good for my Dad, who due to health issues has very restricted mobility. I know his mental health would be much worse without this dynamic. But in the city where I live, that’s not really possible. Friendly with neighbors and enjoy talking to them, but inviting myself for a tea or coffee isn’t really a thing. I do have friend groups and support, especially through my church. But it’s not the same as what you describe or what my parents still have.

notmindthegap 4y ago

The US is a country of immigrants who for the most part came here because they valued the individual over the community. The individualism lives in the deepest roots of our culture. As a child of immigrants who was born and grew up in the US, I feel the same way you do the older I get and have been seriously considering a move abroad because of it. Further, it feels like the only basis of a shared culture, our basic political ideals, is now up for question. So if it isn't faith, ethnicity, etc, then what is actually binding us together?

grugagag 4y ago
> The US is a country of immigrants who for the most part came here because they valued the individual over the community. Not enirely true, many immigrants came for better or better perceived economic opportunities and many continue to have strong but closed communities. Their children, the second generation immigrants allign themselves closer with US culture and values leaving behind communities for more individual values.
- notmindthegap 4y ago
  The very act of leaving a community for better economic opportunities abroad is a demonstration of one's relative values, even if there is a hope to eventually reestablish that sense of community at some point.
BowBun 4y ago
> The US is a country of immigrants who for the most part came here because they valued the individual over the community I disagree with that statement, despite agreeing with the following: > The individualism lives in the deepest roots of our culture. There's a plethora of reasons people come here: freedom to express themselves, security, financial opportunity because they're literally living in squalor elsewhere, etc. I don't think a majority of people came because they _wanted_ individualism. They wanted to improve their situation and came to a country that had a pretty good marketing spiel. Also if you look at immigrant communities in the US, they tend to be much closer than ones that have been here for generations (with exceptions). They create the community you claim is rejected when they come to the USA. The most active communities I've witnessed here are the Asian, Hispanic, and African social circles built around the culture that they left behind in their home countries. So I don't think your argument about immigrants leaving = individualism holds.

proc0 4y ago

> I hope as US becomes more and more diverse, people from other cultures can add the good things they bring, instead of just trying to fit in to the default cultural model. While I agree on the broader point, there is a bias here that I think is worth noting. There is no inherently good or bad cultural practice in this context. It's just a relative difference that of course if you're not used to it, feels uncomfortable. I think it's not hard to see how the flip scenario is also true, people who grow up with more formal and structured social interactions would feel uncomfortable in a culture that has a different social dynamic.

freetinker 4y ago
Having lived in both cultures, I echo this. It's about tradeoffs. The beauty of US individualism is that it allows the space to go within, practice self-inquiry. A side effect that could be loneliness.

NiagaraThistle 4y ago

"Where you can just walk to a friend or a relative's house unannounced for a cup of tea, without thinking all the time if it would inconvenience them." I really miss this. I have lived in the US my whole life but my father and much of my family is from the UK. We would always go over other people's houses unannounced when I was young and they always were excited to see us and never inconvenienced. Compare this to my mother's family (born and raised in the US but by Italian immigrants) and it was another story: you had to call ahead and were typically given a time to be in and out. Fast forward to today, and people think I'm the weird one when I say, let's just "pop in" instead of calling or texting. Except for my parents and sisters, it is completely unheard of to ust pop in or have someone pop in unannounced. My wife gets loads of laughs and shocked expressions when she tells friends and coworkers that me and my family don't call each other ahead of time to visit. It's a much different society today, but i think (hope?) the more people realize lonliness can (in some ways) be avoided by just visiting each other, I think this trend will reverse itself.

curiousfiddler 4y ago
I really do hope. Sometimes, just short visits help you get a sense of community. And slight inconvenience is ok I feel, it is the cost of building/maintaining a relationship :)

ROTMetro 4y ago

I grew up in Santa Cruz, went to University over the hill in the Bay Area, and financially had to move away well into my child raising years. I haven't been able to adjust to the lack of informal social interactions where I am now compared to back there. Crazy to think either 1. Things have changed significantly back home or 2. Moving changes our social networks/relationships. My parents informal community in Santa Cruz was non-existent (we moved there in the late 70s). Mine having grown up there were huge In Santa Cruz I left my garage unlocked so friends could drop off/pick up their surfboards at all hours (the tide cares nothing about the construct of time). Friends literally coming into our house in the early A.M. unannounced while we slept to get/leave their boards.

trieste92 4y ago

> I moved to the US (Bay Area) about 10 years ago after having spent much of my youth elsewhere, and to this day, I haven't been able adjust to the lack of informal social interactions compared to where I'm from. I really tried as well to see if it's me who is not able to fit In the same boat. In HS and college, would have somewhat frequent get togethers and then COVID came and ruined it Idk if the bay area is just like this or if I'm just going through a phase. It's probably just me

curiousfiddler 4y ago
I would think Bay Area might be better than other places given the diversity. I spent a couple of years in North Carolina before moving here, and that experience was not good for me

0xcafefood 4y ago

> I hope as US becomes more and more diverse, people from other cultures can add the good things they bring, instead of just trying to fit in to the default cultural model. The book "Bowling Alone" [1] make the case that diversity actually increases atomization, rather than increases it. This lines up with casual observation too. As the US has become an increasingly pluralistic country, social capital has diminished remarkably. [1] https://www.google.com/books/edition/Bowling_Alone_Revised_and_Updated/C7cCEAAAQBAJ https://www.google.com/books/edition/Bowling_Alone_Revised_a...