4 ms·

I blame the Internet for another reason: we're spending so much time online no one has time for face-to-face communication, either with friends or strangers. I

by sph 4y ago

I blame the Internet for another reason: we're spending so much time online no one has time for face-to-face communication, either with friends or strangers. I have some teenage year family members, and the amount of loneliness symptoms and behaviours I see in 16-18 years olds is staggering. I myself am suffering from it in my 30s, but I grew up in the middle of nowhere and I had more real-life interactions than most teenagers. Online communication carries a lot of downsides, but the primary one is that is just does not activate the part of the brain that makes you feel like you're hanging out with a human. You know you're talking to a human even behind a screen, but it's just a high-level abstraction that often breaks down and is the reason even the best of people sometimes are total jerkwads online. I grew up on the net, it gave me my first friends, and now it's making me so bloody lonely I am literally convinced I would feel more socially nourished if I lived in a shed in the woods and went to the city for shopping once a month. And there's just so many people everywhere. It's either your small Discord with the same friends, or social media at large where everyone is a stranger, just an avatar that has little to no impact whatsoever on your life.

the_snooze 4y ago
>I blame the Internet for another reason: we're spending so much time online no one has time for face-to-face communication, either with friends or strangers. One of the reasons why I absolutely hate QR code menus at restaurants. They make the default state of the table as "phones out." Even in an in-person interaction, the Internet is still necessarily right there.
- SoftTalker 4y ago
  Yeah I hate those. I ask for a menu. If they don't have one, I make the server tell me what they have.
  - DesiLurker 4y ago
    yes, Thats the hill I am willing to die on. I have walked out of restaurants who refused to provide me a physical menu (post covid).
    - kirse 4y ago
      You are not alone brother. Stand firm on that hill!
  - brewdad 4y ago
    You get a server? The places I've been to with those expect you to order and pay through their portal. The first time you interact with a person is when your drinks come out.
    - SoftTalker 4y ago
      I can usually make better food at home. I go to restaurants for the service and convenience. If they don’t offer that I go somewhere else that does.
- autoexec 4y ago
  I suspect QR code menus and restaurant apps are just conditioning us for a time when they can set the prices on my menu differently from the prices on yours based on income level instead of having to guess at who they can rip off using things like what kind of phone you have or what your zip code is (https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilhowe/2017/11/17/a-special-price-just-for-you/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilhowe/2017/11/17/a-special-p...)
imbnwa 4y ago
>I blame the Internet for another reason: we're spending so much time online no one has time for face-to-face communication, either with friends or strangers. That said, meat space interactions are filled with implicit hierarchies, activates power posturing that only manifests online with specific triggers, social and xenophobic anxieties, etc. Just for example, as long as I type in a certain register, you wouldn't be able to premise your response on a set of learned and intuitive behaviors, which not only frees both of us from ourselves in a certain sense, but the conversation as well. In real life, people implicitly respond to the fact that they're talking to a physically unable person, a Black person, a Trans person, a cis woman, a person they're attracted to, an ESL speaker, etc, and this changes the course of things. Not to suggest you're advocating for abolition and severe restriction, I take it you're advocating for finding some balance or other. But maybe just to attenuate that search, there's something of value to exclusively online discoursing that is enabling of things that're more difficult to access than in real-life. Obviously the downsides here are trolls/committal toxic behavior.
- jimbokun 4y ago
  All of that is true, and it’s STILL crucial to have a lot of in person socializing. That is the painfully learned lesson of the mobile phone and social media. It has led to a catastrophic increase in mental health issues, especially for young people.
- sph 4y ago
  > In real life, people implicitly respond to the fact that they're talking to a physically unable person, a Black person, a Trans person, a cis woman, a person they're attracted to, an ESL speaker, etc, and this changes the course of things. This doesn't change things, this is how it's supposed to work and how we have evolved to thrive with. I understand that some marginalised groups find it freeing to discuss with someone without having to show their physical presence, but let me stress that that is a change, and a huge one, on how we evolved to communicate and socialise. There is a non-zero number of terrible people online abusing members of these groups that would be able to feel empathy if they could see that the person in they're talking to is Black, queer or disabled. In fact, I reckon that number of people that would be "nicer" in real life is much larger than you'd expect.
waboremo 4y ago
The idea that loneliness can be solved with even more loneliness is an idea so patently American it's hilarious. I know you're being facetious, but part of the hilarity stems from how many others genuinely believe a shed in the woods is the answer to their problems. Which is part of the problem, people would rather sit idle and do nothing except dream of the ideal isolated state, than to bake some cupcakes and give them to a neighbor, join a book club, participate in more sports, the list goes on and on it's truly endless. I've found that the loneliness epidemic is not one of loneliness, but of comfort. People do not want to experience discomfort and the inconveniences that are a natural part of social life. It's so much easier to open HN than to message one of your friends from the net and hang out. Why join a class to learn to cook when you can just download an app to order? These conveniences are the source of your loneliness. Side note, the best people being jerkwads online only stems from two roots: misunderstanding (as text is difficult to grasp), or people wanting to hurt. Yes it's true, even the best of people can want to hurt others, but it's not due to them truly being evil or not knowing the person they're replying to is a real person - it's because they want to share their pain (in unhealthy ways :P). Bullies IRL operate the exact same way. Also I would like to push back on the idea that online communication does not activate "that part of the brain". There are numerous studies regarding the positive impact of elderly people utilizing the internet, this being used to prevent age related cognitive decline. Games too, widely demonized, have the same positive effect. Switching to a negative light, younger people are drastically more likely to be suicidal the more they use the internet (5+ hours/day). Sources for all of these found here [1]. How can the above paragraph be true if the brain "knows" it's just talking to pixels on a screen? The answer is, our brain doesn't (to some degree, rituals play a big role in why we understand watching a movie = fiction, but hanging out with a friend in a video call = good feelings). This is why it feels good to talk to friends online, but we're missing the externalities involved with in person talk - mobile activity, deeply sharing your interest, gossiping, etc. None of these things have been replicated online beyond superficial methods through VR. These things, while uncomfortable, are crucial to actually reaping the benefits of community. So get a little uncomfortable! [1]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6502424/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6502424/
- stuxnet79 4y ago

by sph 4y ago

the_snooze 4y ago

>I blame the Internet for another reason: we're spending so much time online no one has time for face-to-face communication, either with friends or strangers. One of the reasons why I absolutely hate QR code menus at restaurants. They make the default state of the table as "phones out." Even in an in-person interaction, the Internet is still necessarily right there.

SoftTalker 4y ago
Yeah I hate those. I ask for a menu. If they don't have one, I make the server tell me what they have.
- DesiLurker 4y ago
  yes, Thats the hill I am willing to die on. I have walked out of restaurants who refused to provide me a physical menu (post covid).
  - kirse 4y ago
    You are not alone brother. Stand firm on that hill!
- brewdad 4y ago
  You get a server? The places I've been to with those expect you to order and pay through their portal. The first time you interact with a person is when your drinks come out.
  - SoftTalker 4y ago
    I can usually make better food at home. I go to restaurants for the service and convenience. If they don’t offer that I go somewhere else that does.
autoexec 4y ago
I suspect QR code menus and restaurant apps are just conditioning us for a time when they can set the prices on my menu differently from the prices on yours based on income level instead of having to guess at who they can rip off using things like what kind of phone you have or what your zip code is (https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilhowe/2017/11/17/a-special-price-just-for-you/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilhowe/2017/11/17/a-special-p...)

imbnwa 4y ago

>I blame the Internet for another reason: we're spending so much time online no one has time for face-to-face communication, either with friends or strangers. That said, meat space interactions are filled with implicit hierarchies, activates power posturing that only manifests online with specific triggers, social and xenophobic anxieties, etc. Just for example, as long as I type in a certain register, you wouldn't be able to premise your response on a set of learned and intuitive behaviors, which not only frees both of us from ourselves in a certain sense, but the conversation as well. In real life, people implicitly respond to the fact that they're talking to a physically unable person, a Black person, a Trans person, a cis woman, a person they're attracted to, an ESL speaker, etc, and this changes the course of things. Not to suggest you're advocating for abolition and severe restriction, I take it you're advocating for finding some balance or other. But maybe just to attenuate that search, there's something of value to exclusively online discoursing that is enabling of things that're more difficult to access than in real-life. Obviously the downsides here are trolls/committal toxic behavior.

jimbokun 4y ago
All of that is true, and it’s STILL crucial to have a lot of in person socializing. That is the painfully learned lesson of the mobile phone and social media. It has led to a catastrophic increase in mental health issues, especially for young people.
sph 4y ago
> In real life, people implicitly respond to the fact that they're talking to a physically unable person, a Black person, a Trans person, a cis woman, a person they're attracted to, an ESL speaker, etc, and this changes the course of things. This doesn't change things, this is how it's supposed to work and how we have evolved to thrive with. I understand that some marginalised groups find it freeing to discuss with someone without having to show their physical presence, but let me stress that that is a change, and a huge one, on how we evolved to communicate and socialise. There is a non-zero number of terrible people online abusing members of these groups that would be able to feel empathy if they could see that the person in they're talking to is Black, queer or disabled. In fact, I reckon that number of people that would be "nicer" in real life is much larger than you'd expect.

waboremo 4y ago

The idea that loneliness can be solved with even more loneliness is an idea so patently American it's hilarious. I know you're being facetious, but part of the hilarity stems from how many others genuinely believe a shed in the woods is the answer to their problems. Which is part of the problem, people would rather sit idle and do nothing except dream of the ideal isolated state, than to bake some cupcakes and give them to a neighbor, join a book club, participate in more sports, the list goes on and on it's truly endless. I've found that the loneliness epidemic is not one of loneliness, but of comfort. People do not want to experience discomfort and the inconveniences that are a natural part of social life. It's so much easier to open HN than to message one of your friends from the net and hang out. Why join a class to learn to cook when you can just download an app to order? These conveniences are the source of your loneliness. Side note, the best people being jerkwads online only stems from two roots: misunderstanding (as text is difficult to grasp), or people wanting to hurt. Yes it's true, even the best of people can want to hurt others, but it's not due to them truly being evil or not knowing the person they're replying to is a real person - it's because they want to share their pain (in unhealthy ways :P). Bullies IRL operate the exact same way. Also I would like to push back on the idea that online communication does not activate "that part of the brain". There are numerous studies regarding the positive impact of elderly people utilizing the internet, this being used to prevent age related cognitive decline. Games too, widely demonized, have the same positive effect. Switching to a negative light, younger people are drastically more likely to be suicidal the more they use the internet (5+ hours/day). Sources for all of these found here [1]. How can the above paragraph be true if the brain "knows" it's just talking to pixels on a screen? The answer is, our brain doesn't (to some degree, rituals play a big role in why we understand watching a movie = fiction, but hanging out with a friend in a video call = good feelings). This is why it feels good to talk to friends online, but we're missing the externalities involved with in person talk - mobile activity, deeply sharing your interest, gossiping, etc. None of these things have been replicated online beyond superficial methods through VR. These things, while uncomfortable, are crucial to actually reaping the benefits of community. So get a little uncomfortable! [1]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6502424/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6502424/

stuxnet79 4y ago