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Change my mind: 90%+ of plastic is not necessary. Not necessary: - plastic bottles (good only for coca-cola's profits etc., 90% of bottled drinks contain micr

by myshpa 4y ago

Change my mind: 90%+ of plastic is not necessary. Not necessary: - plastic bottles (good only for coca-cola's profits etc., 90% of bottled drinks contain microplastics, use glass) - food wrappers (use paper & natural wax, not pfoas) - plastic shopping bags (use textile bags like our grandma's did) - eshop packages (ever received goods in plastic bags wrapped in insane amounts of additional plastic?) - tea bags made with plastic (yes, they're there, not biodegradable, lots of microplastics in your tea) - tooth brushes (what's wrong with wood/bamboo ?) - textiles ( cotton / hemp / flax. you think you need to run in modern textiles because it's raining ? stay home, i don't need your pfoas in my water ) - polystyrene for home insulation (why not support plant based alternatives, like hemp / hempcrete) - fishing nets (70% of macro plastic at sea comes from fishing gear, just eat plants people, there are not that many fish left anyway) Necessary: - health care - what have i forgot? Better to stop producing the crap, than to have to find ways how to utilize it without harming everything and everybody. It's good only for the packaging industry, nobody else.

kevviiinn 4y ago
A lot is used in bio research labs as well
hammock 4y ago
>natural wax The only commercially viable wax is paraffin, which is petroleum derived >bamboo All of the bamboo products for sale are glued together with petroleum derived adhesives and often finished with petroleum based products like mineral oil
- Clamchop 4y ago
  Because mineral oil isn't a "drying" oil (it doesn't polymerize in air), it's an unlikely choice for finishing furniture because it stays greasy and will rub off on things. More likely is a drying oil, like linseed, or a synthetic finish, like polyurethane or epoxy.
  - hammock 4y ago
    I was thinking of bamboo kitchen items. I know he said toothbrush so maybe I typed too quickly
- cma 4y ago
  Some use fish glue (though still using petroleum and causing a majority of microplastic ocean pollution via the nets).
Laaas 4y ago
Change my mind: 95%+ of what we consume/use isn't necessary.
- nickff 4y ago
  You're begging the question: what is the definition of 'necessary'? Do you mean necessary to live a risky and brutal life, or necessary to live a comfortable, long, and pleasurable one?
pubby 4y ago
Plastic is useful for being an insulator so it's used in electronics a lot.
mort96 4y ago
On the other hand, what would the the environmental impact of stopping plastic use? I have to assume that producing a plastic bottle requires a minuscule fraction of the energy (and has a fraction of the greenhouse emissions) of creating a glass bottle? Not that single use plastic items isn't an issue; it clearly is. But I'm guessing that the solution isn't generally to replace the single use plastic item with a single use wood/glass/textile item. I could also be wrong. If producing plastic stuff has a much larger impact than what I'm assuming here, please do correct me.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  > creating a glass bottle? Not to mention transporting it. I wonder where the breakeven point is on energy costs. Soda did come in glass bottles when I was young. I don't know precisely why we stopped, but my guess is because people didn't like getting new drinks in beat up old glass.
  - consp 4y ago
    They stopped using hard-PET plastics here for the same reason as glass: Higher cost (even environmentally) for maintaining and cleaning the bottles (min temp of 60c water is required afaik). The plastic is now separated and recycled as-is instead of reused. It's also one of the main reasons they want to get rid of glass beer bottles (as well as that cans do a better job of sealing it) but that is somewhat more difficult culturally.
    - mort96 4y ago
      > but that is somewhat more difficult culturally. Also, changing the material changes the experience of drinking something. At least I find the experience of drinking from glass to be very different to drinking from plastic or drinking from aluminium cans, even if the properties of the liquid itself is completely unchanged. (I dislike drinks with straws for the same reason; cold glass touching lips and liquid running out from it is a different and better experience than putting plastic in the mouth and letting liquid shoot up into the palate.)
  - 4y ago
Wowfunhappy 4y ago
One use that comes to my mind are trash bags. I'm almost embarrassed to ask this, but what did people use for trash bags before plastic was invented? I've tried Googling this a few times with unsatisfying results. Trash bags by definition need to be disposable.
- postalrat 4y ago
  I assume they just threw the trash into the bin and probably kept it outside.
- sdenton4 4y ago
  Trash burning is still pretty common in some parts of the world. It's incredibly bad when plastics and disposable batteries start getting burnt, as is inevitable when burning is the primary trash disposal strategy.
  - tokai 4y ago
    Thank God it is. Burning trash is much better than landfills. Modern incineration plants are not very dirty and they don't poison ground water and wreck nearby ecosystems.
    - Loughla 4y ago
      I think you're talking about two different things. I think the other post may be talking about people who burn their trash at home, instead of at an industrial scale? It seems like a neighborhood of people burning their batteries and plastics would not be great, compared to an industrial incinerator. Or maybe I'm way off base.
    - Tagbert 4y ago
      Uncontrolled burning of trash is much worse than a proper landfill. Modern landfills are constructed with water barriers and do not poison ground water. Old trash dumps were a problem but that is not what is happening in developed nations. Of course, in some areas of the world, both uncontrolled trash burning and unregulated trash dumps are used.
postalrat 4y ago
Plastics and acids don't get well together? Is there some science behind this? Very strong acids are often stored in plastic.
- myshpa 4y ago
  You're right ... that's just an assumption I've held for whatever reason. Couldn't find a source either. Edited the post. Thank you.
rcme 4y ago
You're ignoring pretty much all industrial use of plastic, which is a huge contributor to plastic use. All your other points are essentially "If you paid way more, then plastic wouldn't be necessary." However, if you paid more, then you'd have less money for other stuff. So clearly plastic is necessary for our current levels of consumption.
- littlestymaar 4y ago
  All over-packaging plastic use aren't at all related to paying more. In fact, it costs more to put additional plastic wraps around product to make “bundles” …
  - mrtranscendence 4y ago
    If the bundling prevents breakage, which prevents customer support requests / returns ...
    - dsfyu404ed 4y ago
      Generally speaking when you see some boring industry with margins too tiny to indulge in cargo cutting doing something it's because that something offers measurable (and therefore quantifiable improvement to the bottom line, usually by undercutting competition.
- dweinus 4y ago
  I think you're both right: the current global level of consumption not sustainable, or necessary. Everybody wants a healthy planet, almost nobody wants to volunteer to consume less. Regulation is needed, and it will mean we have to consume less. I realize that's not what anyone wants to hear. On top of that, I think we need social safety nets that prevent the burden from simply crushing the poor while the rich continue to over-consume. In the climate crisis we are trying to pay off generations worth of CO2 debt and we haven't even stopped digging the hole deeper yet.
rockostrich 4y ago
Sorry for the very kitchen focused comment but the kitchen is where I used the most plastic. Polycarbonate is a very useful plastic for food containers ("cambros") because it's lightweight, durable, and can be transparent. Sure, glass could work but it's a lot more fragile, especially if you were to try to constantly stack/unstack them in a commercial kitchen. To a lesser extent the same argument could be made for polypropylene deli containers (for food storage and kitchen prep, not as disposable food containers). I use plastic wrap probably more than I should in the kitchen (when baking) which could obviously be replaced by lids that fit whatever containers I'm putting the plastic wrap on but in some applications I can't imagine plastic wrap being replaced without some special lid (proofing a bread loaf that you want to proof out of the top of the container). I think that's it though. In general, I agree that single-use plastics (or "re-use for a while and eventually throw out") are unnecessary but if something can be used indefinitely (I've had my cambros for something like 5 years at this point and they still look new) then I don't see it as an unnecessary plastic.
- hammock 4y ago
  >Polycarbonate is a very useful plastic for food containers ("cambros") Heavily impregnated with BPA. I would avoid putting anything warmer than room temp in there (yes I know they're in widespread use in restaurants) >I can't imagine plastic wrap being replaced without some special lid (proofing a bread loaf that you want to proof out of the top of the container). Cheese cloth tied around the lid with plenty of slack in the cloth in the middle
  - coeneedell 4y ago
    Unfortunately the cheese cloth solution doesn’t work if you’re cold-fermenting an enriched/fatty dough in the fridge, as it can pick up “fridge flavor” without a lid or plastic wrap. For very long ferments (cold proofing sourdough for example) it’s also liable to dry out. All other situations it works fine for in my experience.
    - gadflyinyoureye 4y ago
nsm 4y ago
Modern waterproof textiles are used by lots and lots of people that keep your basic infrastructure running, that allows you to stay in your warm, insulated, dry house. So they can stay reasonably comfortable while doing jobs like keeping the power running in a snowstorm, or keeping the roads clear for emergency vehicles.
hannob 4y ago
I'm all for reducing plastics, but some of your ideas are quite naive. Like replacing plastics with glas - I mean, you can do that, but glas isn't exactly an environmentally friendly material. Glas making uses a lot of fossil gas, the technology to make glas with renewable electricity does not exist at scale (it's been tried more than a decade ago and was a big failure), and it has emissions that cannot be easily avoided due to the use of carbonates.
- jnsaff2 4y ago
  Glass bottles and jars are pretty much infinitely reusable. Recycled glass saves about 40% of the original energy.
  - tfandango 4y ago
    My city has stopped taking glass in the recycling saying the cost to recycle it outweigh the benefits. It makes me wonder why we don't just clean/reuse them instead like we did in the old days when we returned glass bottles to the grocery store.
    - ticviking 4y ago
      The relentless drive to make our labor available outside our local community in a single global labor market. The trend of interconnected markets has pushed many families and companies to use more and more of their time getting cash instead of being productive in the home or local community.
    - thomasjb 4y ago
      In Germany they have the Pfand deposit scheme, where almost all beverage bottles and tins have a deposit charged on them, and shops have automated bottle and crate collecting machines, which you feed your bottles into and get out a receipt which entitles you to the deposit money off your next shop. You see very few stray bottles on the street, and those you do see are set neatly beside the bins for bottle collectors to pick up
marginalia_nu 4y ago
> - what have i forgot? Electrical insulation is a pretty big use case. Both rubber and paper breaks down in some really unfortunate ways, ceramics are great but aren't really viable if you want to make a cable or wire. Laquer isn't really up for the job either.
- daniel_reetz 4y ago
  And the soy plastic alternatives have caused huge problems in practice. Squirrels and mice totaling entire brand new cars by eating the insulation. Not to mention terrible longevity.
  - marginalia_nu 4y ago
    Yeah in a lot of ways the things that make plastics bad for the environment makes them good for electrical insulation. Primarily how they don't break down very easily, aren't particularly chemically reactive, don't rot, etc.
    - njarboe 4y ago
      The knob and tube wiring in my 1930's house was still working fine. That tech would need to be updated for modern safety requirements (ground wire, etc) but worked without plastics for about 50 years. Much high cost though, I would guess.
      - marginalia_nu 4y ago
        Old wire is usually fine if it just sits there, but it may no longer be water proof or turn hard and brittle. That's why the failure mode is so unfortunate, it loses the properties you'd want in an insulator while still appearing safe.
      - pixl97 4y ago
        Of course you're ignoring all the houses that burned to the ground because knob and tube sucks.
coryrc 4y ago
> polystyrene for home insulation (why not support plant based alternatives, like hemp / hempcrete) Not a class-II vapor retarder. Can't build a comfortable and energy-efficient home without air barrier vapor retarders. (You can build an uncomfortable one, or one which uses far more energy). > tooth brushes (what's wrong with wood/bamboo ?) They all still use nylon brushes. > food wrappers You must be unfamiliar with warehouse conditions if you're willing to eat unprotected food like that.
- myshpa 4y ago
  > not a class-II vapor retarder No time to elaborate, but from what I've read about it, hempcrete houses were built in different environments, even on seashores, as the hemp will petrify and turn the lime back into stone, but keeping the good properties. I've yet to hear about problems with water vapor or about one where it's uncomfortable to live in. Hempcrete has superb insulation properties, it may easily be the best material for home construction. https://insidergrowth.com/advantages-and-disadvantages-of-hempcrete/ https://insidergrowth.com/advantages-and-disadvantages-of-he... https://greathemp.net/advantages-and-disadvantages-of-hempcrete/ https://greathemp.net/advantages-and-disadvantages-of-hempcr... https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/29/science/hemp-homes-cannabis.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/29/science/hemp-homes-cannab... > they all still use nylon brushes Or boar hair ... and that's obviously not good either. Don't know what the best material is. But with using just the nylon brushes, and replacing the rest with wood, we'd save apx. 98% of the material. > You must be unfamiliar with warehouse conditions I'm not. But if you eat plant based only, that's maybe less worry than if we were talking about meat/cheese, I assume. There were no individually packed deli/cheese cuts when I was young. The shops instead had a counter with a shop person preparing orders, packing them into waxed paper. I've seen some counters recently, so it's still practiced somewhere. And people buy it and live, even without plastic.
FlyingAvatar 4y ago
In most cases, I would bet the CO2 impact of the alternatives you list is on the order of 2x - 10x. So long as plastics are not being burned, at least their carbon is not going into the atmosphere.
- myshpa 4y ago
  They touted the plastic as a way to protect the trees. It didn't stop the deforestation. They told us they're inert. Then we've learned about bpa, pfas and microplastics. They told us they're recyclable. Now we now that's not really the truth. They tell us it's for saving CO2. Now we have the stuff in our seas, on beaches, microplastics in rain and wind, there is no place on earth free of it (not even the most remote areas). The only reason why it's used is money ... to make & wrap stuff we don't need, and we (shall) pay for it with our health and poisoned environment. Give me the glass, and reuse it and or recycle it. Energy is (soon will be) free. > So long as plastics are not being burned, at least their carbon is not going into the atmosphere. Keep it in the ground, then.
  - FlyingAvatar 4y ago
    I mean, I understand the sentiment. At the same time, most of the consumers of said plastics are living longer than previous generations. I don't think it's as bad as you make it out. Granted, at some point the human race will need to act more holistically about their resource usage, but I think that will take a very long time and probably not until it has become a much more painful problem.
    - checkyoursudo 4y ago
      > most of the consumers of said plastics are living longer than previous generations Can we say, for sure, that this is true? My grandma just died a few years ago. I couldn't tell you exactly when the plastic revolution happened, but I would say it was significantly long after she became an adult. I'm not sure we are at the point of knowing yet whether my plastic generation outlives my grandma's non-plastic generation, statistically speaking.
cma 4y ago
> tea bags made with plastic (yes, they're there, not biodegradable, lots of microplastics in your tea) I would imagine every time you scrape off the lint from your dryer's lint trap you inhale orders of magnitude more microplastics than these food/drink examples and and swallow more too from nasal drip. Is this intuition off?
- myshpa 4y ago
  Don't know about the comparison with dryers, but teabags leak billions of particles https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49845940 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49845940
lumb63 4y ago
A huge barrier to eliminating plastic use is making people aware of their plastic use. Prior to thinking about it and investigating, I was unaware of how many plastics I was using. How many people think their clothing is plastic? They probably think it’s “some textile” and that’s all the thought they ever give it. How many people consider the plastic in their dishwasher or laundry pods, or in packaging? They’re all unconscious decisions that people make because they are using what corporations give them. Also, related, reusable stuff is great and disposable stuff sucks. I always joke about wondering what the sales pitch was for disposable razors: “have you ever wished you had to replace your entire razor every time the blade dulled?” Not only is it wasteful but it simply makes no sense in many cases.
- ldhough 4y ago
  > probably think it’s “some textile” and that’s all the thought they ever give it. Even when aware it can be a challenge to find replacements. I bought https://www.patagonia.com/product/mens-pile-lined-trucker-jacket/26520.html https://www.patagonia.com/product/mens-pile-lined-trucker-ja... a year ago and while I put reasonable effort into finding an alternative that didn't use "pile" or "sherpa wool" (fake wool), it was hard to find any at all. The very few results I did find were a totally different style. Ordinary shirts seem to be a fair bit easier but I would love suggestions for high quality jackets made of natural materials.
  - lumb63 4y ago
    I’ve got the same problem with socks. It’s quite literally impossible. Even brands that sell “100% cotton” socks have a small amount of polyester or spandex, etc.
gadders 4y ago
Glass is a lot heavier than plastic. Would using glass require more fuel to transport heavier loads?
VLM 4y ago
Cars are mostly plastic by weight. Remember every extra pound means burning an extra Y gallons of fuel over the life of the car. Replacing plastic with steel would likely be a net loss environmentally speaking.
- myshpa 4y ago
  There are other materials we could use. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kgg0zpckGRU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kgg0zpckGRU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hx8OTH0eEM0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hx8OTH0eEM0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srgE6Tzi3Lg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srgE6Tzi3Lg
- maxerickson 4y ago
  What? A lot of the saved weight in cars is probably plastic, but the metal parts of the care pretty obviously make up the majority of the weight. Engine, transmission, axles, suspension, frame/unibody, frequently body panels are steel, etc.
MoreSEMI 4y ago
-textiles: I think as soon as you recommend to reduce someone’s quality of life you can forget about it. I agree with a lot of the other recommendations, but telling someone to stay home sounds a lot like dismissal. However, anything where behavior can be changed without changing QoL should be done.
ldhough 4y ago
> use glass I really enjoy soft drinks (terrible ik) and will never buy plastic bottles or cans instead of glass bottles. I really don't think I'm crazy or alone in thinking glass-bottled tastes better. My local convenience store sells Jarritos but not the glass-bottled Mexican coke and as a direct consequence I only buy the Jarritos, otherwise I'd mix it up a bit. I assume glass is also better environmentally but I do wonder how much of the benefit is offset by taking more energy to produce (I assume) and to ship.
JohnDoe124 4y ago
>plastic shopping bags (use textile bags iirc you would have to use a textile bag several hundred times to have a lower impact that plastic bags, maybe reusing plastic bags is a better option. Or polyester idk. same for cotton, water use and carbon dioxide emissions are huge and debatably polyester clothes are better environmentally (it's hard to compare as there is no conversion rate between plastic waste/microplastic pollution and carbon dioxide) emissions)

by myshpa 4y ago

kevviiinn 4y ago

A lot is used in bio research labs as well

hammock 4y ago

>natural wax The only commercially viable wax is paraffin, which is petroleum derived >bamboo All of the bamboo products for sale are glued together with petroleum derived adhesives and often finished with petroleum based products like mineral oil

Clamchop 4y ago
Because mineral oil isn't a "drying" oil (it doesn't polymerize in air), it's an unlikely choice for finishing furniture because it stays greasy and will rub off on things. More likely is a drying oil, like linseed, or a synthetic finish, like polyurethane or epoxy.
- hammock 4y ago
  I was thinking of bamboo kitchen items. I know he said toothbrush so maybe I typed too quickly
cma 4y ago
Some use fish glue (though still using petroleum and causing a majority of microplastic ocean pollution via the nets).

Laaas 4y ago

Change my mind: 95%+ of what we consume/use isn't necessary.

nickff 4y ago
You're begging the question: what is the definition of 'necessary'? Do you mean necessary to live a risky and brutal life, or necessary to live a comfortable, long, and pleasurable one?

pubby 4y ago

Plastic is useful for being an insulator so it's used in electronics a lot.

mort96 4y ago

On the other hand, what would the the environmental impact of stopping plastic use? I have to assume that producing a plastic bottle requires a minuscule fraction of the energy (and has a fraction of the greenhouse emissions) of creating a glass bottle? Not that single use plastic items isn't an issue; it clearly is. But I'm guessing that the solution isn't generally to replace the single use plastic item with a single use wood/glass/textile item. I could also be wrong. If producing plastic stuff has a much larger impact than what I'm assuming here, please do correct me.

rootusrootus 4y ago
> creating a glass bottle? Not to mention transporting it. I wonder where the breakeven point is on energy costs. Soda did come in glass bottles when I was young. I don't know precisely why we stopped, but my guess is because people didn't like getting new drinks in beat up old glass.
- consp 4y ago
  They stopped using hard-PET plastics here for the same reason as glass: Higher cost (even environmentally) for maintaining and cleaning the bottles (min temp of 60c water is required afaik). The plastic is now separated and recycled as-is instead of reused. It's also one of the main reasons they want to get rid of glass beer bottles (as well as that cans do a better job of sealing it) but that is somewhat more difficult culturally.
  - mort96 4y ago
    > but that is somewhat more difficult culturally. Also, changing the material changes the experience of drinking something. At least I find the experience of drinking from glass to be very different to drinking from plastic or drinking from aluminium cans, even if the properties of the liquid itself is completely unchanged. (I dislike drinks with straws for the same reason; cold glass touching lips and liquid running out from it is a different and better experience than putting plastic in the mouth and letting liquid shoot up into the palate.)
- 4y ago

Wowfunhappy 4y ago

One use that comes to my mind are trash bags. I'm almost embarrassed to ask this, but what did people use for trash bags before plastic was invented? I've tried Googling this a few times with unsatisfying results. Trash bags by definition need to be disposable.

postalrat 4y ago
I assume they just threw the trash into the bin and probably kept it outside.
sdenton4 4y ago
Trash burning is still pretty common in some parts of the world. It's incredibly bad when plastics and disposable batteries start getting burnt, as is inevitable when burning is the primary trash disposal strategy.
- tokai 4y ago
  Thank God it is. Burning trash is much better than landfills. Modern incineration plants are not very dirty and they don't poison ground water and wreck nearby ecosystems.
  - Loughla 4y ago
    I think you're talking about two different things. I think the other post may be talking about people who burn their trash at home, instead of at an industrial scale? It seems like a neighborhood of people burning their batteries and plastics would not be great, compared to an industrial incinerator. Or maybe I'm way off base.
  - Tagbert 4y ago
    Uncontrolled burning of trash is much worse than a proper landfill. Modern landfills are constructed with water barriers and do not poison ground water. Old trash dumps were a problem but that is not what is happening in developed nations. Of course, in some areas of the world, both uncontrolled trash burning and unregulated trash dumps are used.

postalrat 4y ago

Plastics and acids don't get well together? Is there some science behind this? Very strong acids are often stored in plastic.

myshpa 4y ago
You're right ... that's just an assumption I've held for whatever reason. Couldn't find a source either. Edited the post. Thank you.

rcme 4y ago

You're ignoring pretty much all industrial use of plastic, which is a huge contributor to plastic use. All your other points are essentially "If you paid way more, then plastic wouldn't be necessary." However, if you paid more, then you'd have less money for other stuff. So clearly plastic is necessary for our current levels of consumption.

littlestymaar 4y ago
All over-packaging plastic use aren't at all related to paying more. In fact, it costs more to put additional plastic wraps around product to make “bundles” …
- mrtranscendence 4y ago
  If the bundling prevents breakage, which prevents customer support requests / returns ...
  - dsfyu404ed 4y ago
    Generally speaking when you see some boring industry with margins too tiny to indulge in cargo cutting doing something it's because that something offers measurable (and therefore quantifiable improvement to the bottom line, usually by undercutting competition.
dweinus 4y ago
I think you're both right: the current global level of consumption not sustainable, or necessary. Everybody wants a healthy planet, almost nobody wants to volunteer to consume less. Regulation is needed, and it will mean we have to consume less. I realize that's not what anyone wants to hear. On top of that, I think we need social safety nets that prevent the burden from simply crushing the poor while the rich continue to over-consume. In the climate crisis we are trying to pay off generations worth of CO2 debt and we haven't even stopped digging the hole deeper yet.

rockostrich 4y ago

Sorry for the very kitchen focused comment but the kitchen is where I used the most plastic. Polycarbonate is a very useful plastic for food containers ("cambros") because it's lightweight, durable, and can be transparent. Sure, glass could work but it's a lot more fragile, especially if you were to try to constantly stack/unstack them in a commercial kitchen. To a lesser extent the same argument could be made for polypropylene deli containers (for food storage and kitchen prep, not as disposable food containers). I use plastic wrap probably more than I should in the kitchen (when baking) which could obviously be replaced by lids that fit whatever containers I'm putting the plastic wrap on but in some applications I can't imagine plastic wrap being replaced without some special lid (proofing a bread loaf that you want to proof out of the top of the container). I think that's it though. In general, I agree that single-use plastics (or "re-use for a while and eventually throw out") are unnecessary but if something can be used indefinitely (I've had my cambros for something like 5 years at this point and they still look new) then I don't see it as an unnecessary plastic.

hammock 4y ago
>Polycarbonate is a very useful plastic for food containers ("cambros") Heavily impregnated with BPA. I would avoid putting anything warmer than room temp in there (yes I know they're in widespread use in restaurants) >I can't imagine plastic wrap being replaced without some special lid (proofing a bread loaf that you want to proof out of the top of the container). Cheese cloth tied around the lid with plenty of slack in the cloth in the middle
- coeneedell 4y ago
  Unfortunately the cheese cloth solution doesn’t work if you’re cold-fermenting an enriched/fatty dough in the fridge, as it can pick up “fridge flavor” without a lid or plastic wrap. For very long ferments (cold proofing sourdough for example) it’s also liable to dry out. All other situations it works fine for in my experience.
  - gadflyinyoureye 4y ago

nsm 4y ago

Modern waterproof textiles are used by lots and lots of people that keep your basic infrastructure running, that allows you to stay in your warm, insulated, dry house. So they can stay reasonably comfortable while doing jobs like keeping the power running in a snowstorm, or keeping the roads clear for emergency vehicles.

hannob 4y ago

I'm all for reducing plastics, but some of your ideas are quite naive. Like replacing plastics with glas - I mean, you can do that, but glas isn't exactly an environmentally friendly material. Glas making uses a lot of fossil gas, the technology to make glas with renewable electricity does not exist at scale (it's been tried more than a decade ago and was a big failure), and it has emissions that cannot be easily avoided due to the use of carbonates.

jnsaff2 4y ago
Glass bottles and jars are pretty much infinitely reusable. Recycled glass saves about 40% of the original energy.
- tfandango 4y ago
  My city has stopped taking glass in the recycling saying the cost to recycle it outweigh the benefits. It makes me wonder why we don't just clean/reuse them instead like we did in the old days when we returned glass bottles to the grocery store.
  - ticviking 4y ago
    The relentless drive to make our labor available outside our local community in a single global labor market. The trend of interconnected markets has pushed many families and companies to use more and more of their time getting cash instead of being productive in the home or local community.
  - thomasjb 4y ago
    In Germany they have the Pfand deposit scheme, where almost all beverage bottles and tins have a deposit charged on them, and shops have automated bottle and crate collecting machines, which you feed your bottles into and get out a receipt which entitles you to the deposit money off your next shop. You see very few stray bottles on the street, and those you do see are set neatly beside the bins for bottle collectors to pick up

marginalia_nu 4y ago

> - what have i forgot? Electrical insulation is a pretty big use case. Both rubber and paper breaks down in some really unfortunate ways, ceramics are great but aren't really viable if you want to make a cable or wire. Laquer isn't really up for the job either.

daniel_reetz 4y ago
And the soy plastic alternatives have caused huge problems in practice. Squirrels and mice totaling entire brand new cars by eating the insulation. Not to mention terrible longevity.
- marginalia_nu 4y ago
  Yeah in a lot of ways the things that make plastics bad for the environment makes them good for electrical insulation. Primarily how they don't break down very easily, aren't particularly chemically reactive, don't rot, etc.
  - njarboe 4y ago
    The knob and tube wiring in my 1930's house was still working fine. That tech would need to be updated for modern safety requirements (ground wire, etc) but worked without plastics for about 50 years. Much high cost though, I would guess.
    - marginalia_nu 4y ago
      Old wire is usually fine if it just sits there, but it may no longer be water proof or turn hard and brittle. That's why the failure mode is so unfortunate, it loses the properties you'd want in an insulator while still appearing safe.
    - pixl97 4y ago
      Of course you're ignoring all the houses that burned to the ground because knob and tube sucks.

coryrc 4y ago

> polystyrene for home insulation (why not support plant based alternatives, like hemp / hempcrete) Not a class-II vapor retarder. Can't build a comfortable and energy-efficient home without air barrier vapor retarders. (You can build an uncomfortable one, or one which uses far more energy). > tooth brushes (what's wrong with wood/bamboo ?) They all still use nylon brushes. > food wrappers You must be unfamiliar with warehouse conditions if you're willing to eat unprotected food like that.

myshpa 4y ago
> not a class-II vapor retarder No time to elaborate, but from what I've read about it, hempcrete houses were built in different environments, even on seashores, as the hemp will petrify and turn the lime back into stone, but keeping the good properties. I've yet to hear about problems with water vapor or about one where it's uncomfortable to live in. Hempcrete has superb insulation properties, it may easily be the best material for home construction. https://insidergrowth.com/advantages-and-disadvantages-of-hempcrete/ https://insidergrowth.com/advantages-and-disadvantages-of-he... https://greathemp.net/advantages-and-disadvantages-of-hempcrete/ https://greathemp.net/advantages-and-disadvantages-of-hempcr... https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/29/science/hemp-homes-cannabis.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/29/science/hemp-homes-cannab... > they all still use nylon brushes Or boar hair ... and that's obviously not good either. Don't know what the best material is. But with using just the nylon brushes, and replacing the rest with wood, we'd save apx. 98% of the material. > You must be unfamiliar with warehouse conditions I'm not. But if you eat plant based only, that's maybe less worry than if we were talking about meat/cheese, I assume. There were no individually packed deli/cheese cuts when I was young. The shops instead had a counter with a shop person preparing orders, packing them into waxed paper. I've seen some counters recently, so it's still practiced somewhere. And people buy it and live, even without plastic.

FlyingAvatar 4y ago

In most cases, I would bet the CO2 impact of the alternatives you list is on the order of 2x - 10x. So long as plastics are not being burned, at least their carbon is not going into the atmosphere.

myshpa 4y ago
They touted the plastic as a way to protect the trees. It didn't stop the deforestation. They told us they're inert. Then we've learned about bpa, pfas and microplastics. They told us they're recyclable. Now we now that's not really the truth. They tell us it's for saving CO2. Now we have the stuff in our seas, on beaches, microplastics in rain and wind, there is no place on earth free of it (not even the most remote areas). The only reason why it's used is money ... to make & wrap stuff we don't need, and we (shall) pay for it with our health and poisoned environment. Give me the glass, and reuse it and or recycle it. Energy is (soon will be) free. > So long as plastics are not being burned, at least their carbon is not going into the atmosphere. Keep it in the ground, then.
- FlyingAvatar 4y ago
  I mean, I understand the sentiment. At the same time, most of the consumers of said plastics are living longer than previous generations. I don't think it's as bad as you make it out. Granted, at some point the human race will need to act more holistically about their resource usage, but I think that will take a very long time and probably not until it has become a much more painful problem.
  - checkyoursudo 4y ago
    > most of the consumers of said plastics are living longer than previous generations Can we say, for sure, that this is true? My grandma just died a few years ago. I couldn't tell you exactly when the plastic revolution happened, but I would say it was significantly long after she became an adult. I'm not sure we are at the point of knowing yet whether my plastic generation outlives my grandma's non-plastic generation, statistically speaking.

cma 4y ago

> tea bags made with plastic (yes, they're there, not biodegradable, lots of microplastics in your tea) I would imagine every time you scrape off the lint from your dryer's lint trap you inhale orders of magnitude more microplastics than these food/drink examples and and swallow more too from nasal drip. Is this intuition off?

myshpa 4y ago
Don't know about the comparison with dryers, but teabags leak billions of particles https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49845940 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49845940

lumb63 4y ago

A huge barrier to eliminating plastic use is making people aware of their plastic use. Prior to thinking about it and investigating, I was unaware of how many plastics I was using. How many people think their clothing is plastic? They probably think it’s “some textile” and that’s all the thought they ever give it. How many people consider the plastic in their dishwasher or laundry pods, or in packaging? They’re all unconscious decisions that people make because they are using what corporations give them. Also, related, reusable stuff is great and disposable stuff sucks. I always joke about wondering what the sales pitch was for disposable razors: “have you ever wished you had to replace your entire razor every time the blade dulled?” Not only is it wasteful but it simply makes no sense in many cases.

ldhough 4y ago
> probably think it’s “some textile” and that’s all the thought they ever give it. Even when aware it can be a challenge to find replacements. I bought https://www.patagonia.com/product/mens-pile-lined-trucker-jacket/26520.html https://www.patagonia.com/product/mens-pile-lined-trucker-ja... a year ago and while I put reasonable effort into finding an alternative that didn't use "pile" or "sherpa wool" (fake wool), it was hard to find any at all. The very few results I did find were a totally different style. Ordinary shirts seem to be a fair bit easier but I would love suggestions for high quality jackets made of natural materials.
- lumb63 4y ago
  I’ve got the same problem with socks. It’s quite literally impossible. Even brands that sell “100% cotton” socks have a small amount of polyester or spandex, etc.

gadders 4y ago

Glass is a lot heavier than plastic. Would using glass require more fuel to transport heavier loads?

VLM 4y ago

Cars are mostly plastic by weight. Remember every extra pound means burning an extra Y gallons of fuel over the life of the car. Replacing plastic with steel would likely be a net loss environmentally speaking.

myshpa 4y ago
There are other materials we could use. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kgg0zpckGRU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kgg0zpckGRU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hx8OTH0eEM0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hx8OTH0eEM0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srgE6Tzi3Lg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srgE6Tzi3Lg
maxerickson 4y ago
What? A lot of the saved weight in cars is probably plastic, but the metal parts of the care pretty obviously make up the majority of the weight. Engine, transmission, axles, suspension, frame/unibody, frequently body panels are steel, etc.

MoreSEMI 4y ago

-textiles: I think as soon as you recommend to reduce someone’s quality of life you can forget about it. I agree with a lot of the other recommendations, but telling someone to stay home sounds a lot like dismissal. However, anything where behavior can be changed without changing QoL should be done.

ldhough 4y ago

> use glass I really enjoy soft drinks (terrible ik) and will never buy plastic bottles or cans instead of glass bottles. I really don't think I'm crazy or alone in thinking glass-bottled tastes better. My local convenience store sells Jarritos but not the glass-bottled Mexican coke and as a direct consequence I only buy the Jarritos, otherwise I'd mix it up a bit. I assume glass is also better environmentally but I do wonder how much of the benefit is offset by taking more energy to produce (I assume) and to ship.

JohnDoe124 4y ago

>plastic shopping bags (use textile bags iirc you would have to use a textile bag several hundred times to have a lower impact that plastic bags, maybe reusing plastic bags is a better option. Or polyester idk. same for cotton, water use and carbon dioxide emissions are huge and debatably polyester clothes are better environmentally (it's hard to compare as there is no conversion rate between plastic waste/microplastic pollution and carbon dioxide) emissions)