4 ms·

Maybe students are more shy and more careful because everyone around them has a video camera in their pocket.

red-iron-pine 4y ago
And highly developed, must-participate-in social media sites. Cameras ain't jack if there isn't a way to share the footage. Then there is a Me-Too thing, which has led to a lot of younger women being very sensitive about real or perceived aggressions from men. Perhaps justified, but now it means a small misstep or failure to walk the line can be costly in a social sense. Young dude doesn't really know how to interact with girls so he comes off too strong and ends up being called a creeper on Insta and shunned for a few years. Why take the risk when onlyfans is cheap?
- jstarfish 4y ago
  > being very sensitive about real or perceived aggressions from men. Perhaps justified, but now it means a small misstep or failure to walk the line can be costly in a social sense. Not at all justified. Crying victim over vague aggressions is as pathologically toxic and sexist as it gets. They can't even be bothered to make an actual false accusation they can later be held accountable for, it's just "waaah, there's a man here who's not behaving the way -I- want them to. Minions, attack!" It's regressed so badly, any sort of attempt to hold this subset of women accountable for their own behavior is met with them trying to rile up a mob against you as they publicly squawk about you being vaguely "aggressive." The point is to intimidate male targets (legitimate or not) into compliance and silence. It's not justified, it's female-perpetrated abuse (DARVO is passive aggression). Not a fun time to be a parent or teacher with any sort of legal responsibility for this demographic; there is absolutely no support for custodians because everybody has been conditioned to uncritically associate all men with abuse and all women with victimhood. God help you if you're a male victim of anything, because nobody else will! IME: In a recent workplace violence complaint, a female employee played this card against a male manager who was "aggressive" in giving her a negative performance review for job abandonment (ironically, this wasn't a younger employee). She later stole thousands of dollars of equipment and quit.
  - atoav 4y ago
    > They can't even be bothered to make an actual false accusation they can later be held accountable for, it's just "waaah, there's a man here who's not behaving the way -I- want them to. Minions, attack!" As someone who works and teaches at an art university in Europe which is certainly one of the more liberal places you could study in: Over the past 8 years I have witnessed one comparable case and that person was basically ignored by everybody a month later because there were obviously psychological no problems involved. That case was 6 years ago. I haven't even heard of a similar case in our univesity during those 8 years. Do you have observed anything like this in increasing numbers yourself or do you have any reliable data on it? I don't tend to count reading someone's story online as reliable data in a political surrounding where some actors describe themselves unironically using the term "culture warriors". I can certainly stand for the observation that the supposedly snow-flakey, supposedly woke-liberal art students I had the pleasure to work with are in reality for the most part quite pragmatic, realist and self-aware people who can take things with a grain of salt and also argue about topics nuanced even if the opinion of the other side differs. Virtual problems are virtual. But maybe this is wildly different on other universities (in the US)? At least from the US, Canadian, UK exchange students I have known this did not seem to be the case.
    - jstarfish 4y ago
      > Do you have observed anything like this in increasing numbers yourself or do you have any reliable data on it? I don't tend to count reading someone's story online as reliable data in a political surrounding where some actors describe themselves unironically using the term "culture warriors". Fair enough; I'm not a "culture warrior" or affiliated with academics. My opinions and speculations are borne from US-based domestic and private-sector situations I've personally had to deal with. I didn't mean to imply this is a problem at universities specifically (nor at all), or that there is a statistically-significant "trend" at play-- I've just seen more of this in the last two years than I have in the last decade myself (it used to be people would just make false accusations!). Think I'm at 5 cases now. > I have witnessed one comparable case and that person was basically ignored by everybody a month later because there were obviously psychological no problems involved This has been my experience as well-- until recently. I think this is some sort of distinctly-American social media influenced-or-reinforced behavior that started manifesting in public spaces after the end of quarantine, since each of my cases seems to follow a very similar playbook-- both parties behind closed doors, no police report, no way to verify the claims, no evidence, and then a lot of dancing around what specific offense the "aggressor" is alleged to have done-- they will just refuse to provide details when pressed. Sometimes they get aggressively defensive about it ("you can't ask me about that! It's personal!"). This sort of behavior seems to have been popular on Tumblr years ago, with teenagers "role-playing" (ugh) sharing of rape and other abuse stories, and the act itself called "vagueing" [sic? Thanks, Kiwi Farms]. I'd guess that those kids are now in college or entering the workforce for the first time, and older adults like me are starting to catch on to the concept. I don't know if it's all the same but every time it comes up for me, the whole thing stinks of someone trying to get out of some sort of trouble by dog-whistling to some sympathetic authority-- the "victim" always has some drama going on that started right before the abuse claim. In a recent sextortion case, the "victim" wanted divorce but was averse to initiating it herself, and hadn't been married long enough to be able to walk away with much in shared assets. Then we hear a vague rape story that somehow is articulated without ever using the word "rape" and can only be made right with an off-the-books payout higher than the statutory limit. Go figure.
- atoav 4y ago
  A good theory, but it doesn't quite explain my observation. What I described is a phenomenom that includes all students regardless of gender. If it was as you said I'd expect noticeble differences between the behavior of male and female students. As someone who teaches at university I definitly get to interact with young women often and I have never once felt the sensitivity you described either towards myself (male) or towards any other young male student. I have seen it towards single older members of the staff who thought telling some joke about women and technology in front of a female student who was a professional carpenter before was a fun idea. Let me assure you that they got the receipt for that directly and in a way they probably will not forget quickly. So no, this is not the explaination, at least not by my observation.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
atoav 4y ago
I live in an area of the world that has a very strong culture of privacy. Taking a picture of someone without their permission and/or publishing it is illegal and can land you in jail depending on how invasive that photo is. Generally students respect each other's privacy so that is very likely not the cause here.

And highly developed, must-participate-in social media sites. Cameras ain't jack if there isn't a way to share the footage. Then there is a Me-Too thing, which has led to a lot of younger women being very sensitive about real or perceived aggressions from men. Perhaps justified, but now it means a small misstep or failure to walk the line can be costly in a social sense. Young dude doesn't really know how to interact with girls so he comes off too strong and ends up being called a creeper on Insta and shunned for a few years. Why take the risk when onlyfans is cheap?

jstarfish 4y ago
> being very sensitive about real or perceived aggressions from men. Perhaps justified, but now it means a small misstep or failure to walk the line can be costly in a social sense. Not at all justified. Crying victim over vague aggressions is as pathologically toxic and sexist as it gets. They can't even be bothered to make an actual false accusation they can later be held accountable for, it's just "waaah, there's a man here who's not behaving the way -I- want them to. Minions, attack!" It's regressed so badly, any sort of attempt to hold this subset of women accountable for their own behavior is met with them trying to rile up a mob against you as they publicly squawk about you being vaguely "aggressive." The point is to intimidate male targets (legitimate or not) into compliance and silence. It's not justified, it's female-perpetrated abuse (DARVO is passive aggression). Not a fun time to be a parent or teacher with any sort of legal responsibility for this demographic; there is absolutely no support for custodians because everybody has been conditioned to uncritically associate all men with abuse and all women with victimhood. God help you if you're a male victim of anything, because nobody else will! IME: In a recent workplace violence complaint, a female employee played this card against a male manager who was "aggressive" in giving her a negative performance review for job abandonment (ironically, this wasn't a younger employee). She later stole thousands of dollars of equipment and quit.
- atoav 4y ago
  > They can't even be bothered to make an actual false accusation they can later be held accountable for, it's just "waaah, there's a man here who's not behaving the way -I- want them to. Minions, attack!" As someone who works and teaches at an art university in Europe which is certainly one of the more liberal places you could study in: Over the past 8 years I have witnessed one comparable case and that person was basically ignored by everybody a month later because there were obviously psychological no problems involved. That case was 6 years ago. I haven't even heard of a similar case in our univesity during those 8 years. Do you have observed anything like this in increasing numbers yourself or do you have any reliable data on it? I don't tend to count reading someone's story online as reliable data in a political surrounding where some actors describe themselves unironically using the term "culture warriors". I can certainly stand for the observation that the supposedly snow-flakey, supposedly woke-liberal art students I had the pleasure to work with are in reality for the most part quite pragmatic, realist and self-aware people who can take things with a grain of salt and also argue about topics nuanced even if the opinion of the other side differs. Virtual problems are virtual. But maybe this is wildly different on other universities (in the US)? At least from the US, Canadian, UK exchange students I have known this did not seem to be the case.
  - jstarfish 4y ago
    > Do you have observed anything like this in increasing numbers yourself or do you have any reliable data on it? I don't tend to count reading someone's story online as reliable data in a political surrounding where some actors describe themselves unironically using the term "culture warriors". Fair enough; I'm not a "culture warrior" or affiliated with academics. My opinions and speculations are borne from US-based domestic and private-sector situations I've personally had to deal with. I didn't mean to imply this is a problem at universities specifically (nor at all), or that there is a statistically-significant "trend" at play-- I've just seen more of this in the last two years than I have in the last decade myself (it used to be people would just make false accusations!). Think I'm at 5 cases now. > I have witnessed one comparable case and that person was basically ignored by everybody a month later because there were obviously psychological no problems involved This has been my experience as well-- until recently. I think this is some sort of distinctly-American social media influenced-or-reinforced behavior that started manifesting in public spaces after the end of quarantine, since each of my cases seems to follow a very similar playbook-- both parties behind closed doors, no police report, no way to verify the claims, no evidence, and then a lot of dancing around what specific offense the "aggressor" is alleged to have done-- they will just refuse to provide details when pressed. Sometimes they get aggressively defensive about it ("you can't ask me about that! It's personal!"). This sort of behavior seems to have been popular on Tumblr years ago, with teenagers "role-playing" (ugh) sharing of rape and other abuse stories, and the act itself called "vagueing" [sic? Thanks, Kiwi Farms]. I'd guess that those kids are now in college or entering the workforce for the first time, and older adults like me are starting to catch on to the concept. I don't know if it's all the same but every time it comes up for me, the whole thing stinks of someone trying to get out of some sort of trouble by dog-whistling to some sympathetic authority-- the "victim" always has some drama going on that started right before the abuse claim. In a recent sextortion case, the "victim" wanted divorce but was averse to initiating it herself, and hadn't been married long enough to be able to walk away with much in shared assets. Then we hear a vague rape story that somehow is articulated without ever using the word "rape" and can only be made right with an off-the-books payout higher than the statutory limit. Go figure.
atoav 4y ago
A good theory, but it doesn't quite explain my observation. What I described is a phenomenom that includes all students regardless of gender. If it was as you said I'd expect noticeble differences between the behavior of male and female students. As someone who teaches at university I definitly get to interact with young women often and I have never once felt the sensitivity you described either towards myself (male) or towards any other young male student. I have seen it towards single older members of the staff who thought telling some joke about women and technology in front of a female student who was a professional carpenter before was a fun idea. Let me assure you that they got the receipt for that directly and in a way they probably will not forget quickly. So no, this is not the explaination, at least not by my observation.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

atoav 4y ago

I live in an area of the world that has a very strong culture of privacy. Taking a picture of someone without their permission and/or publishing it is illegal and can land you in jail depending on how invasive that photo is. Generally students respect each other's privacy so that is very likely not the cause here.