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We've seen various workplaces unionise (Some Starbucks stores, Amazon in some warehouses etc). What have they achieved so far? I ask because the core things t

We've seen various workplaces unionise (Some Starbucks stores, Amazon in some warehouses etc). What have they achieved so far? I ask because the core things that would attract me to a union (higher pay, perks, better conditions etc) and the kind of things the unions were selling themselves on (more diverse workforces, ethical statements by corporations) had very little overlap... To be clear: I think people have a right to unionise and to push for what they want. I am just interested in what they want and how effective the process is at getting it... Edit: It seems like there has been no actual progress yet: > Workers won breakthrough union victories at Starbucks in December 2021, and the next year saw several other organizing victories. REI workers had a successful union vote in March 2022, Amazon in April, Apple in June, Trader Joe’s in July and Chipotle in August, but none of those companies have reached a first contract. This is sort of what I thought would happen: people thought a union meant they'd get what they wanted. But unions can only get you what they have the power to force employers to give up. And when you only unionise one store that is basically nothing...

nhchris 4y ago
> I am just interested in what they want and how effective the process is at getting it... What they want and what union leadership wants may not be the same.
deleted 4y ago
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didntreadarticl 4y ago
I am just interested in what they want and how effective the process is at getting it You can compare Europe to the USA to see that USA Union membership vs Europe https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2021/03/30/how-us-trade-union-membership-compares-infographic/?sh=17db9fcc66ac https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2021/03/30/how-us... USA Employee conditions vs Europe https://4liberty.eu/everyday-reality-of-employees-in-us-vs-eu/ https://4liberty.eu/everyday-reality-of-employees-in-us-vs-e...
- marcusverus 4y ago
  Your articles do a good job of presenting all of the ways in which Europeans have it better than Americans. The counterpoint is pretty strong, though: average US household disposable income is ~67% higher than the OECD average. [0]https://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/countries/united-states/#:~:text=These%20assessments%20are%20based%20on,USD%2030%20490%20a%20year https://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/countries/united-states/....
  - cyclecount 4y ago
    This is perfect example of how statistics can mislead. For one, the average in the US is far from the median income. But more importantly, these metrics ignore many other factors in standard of living, such as days off per year or the amount of income that you need to put into basic human costs like housing and healthcare.
  - sofixa 4y ago
    > average US household disposable income is ~67% higher than the OECD average. It's unclear (but doesn't sound like it) if that number is adjusted for Cost of Living. In the US education, healthcare and transportation are significantly more expensive than in most OECD countries. For instance, it's pretty much unheard of across the OECD for education to cost tens to hundreds of thousands of USD and workers to start their work life with massive debts. Healthcare-related bankruptcies are also extremely rare outside of the US. And the work-life balance rating of 5.2/10 is pretty damning. What good is that extra money (if it's actually extra money and not going to savings to be able to afford the next surprise medical bill) if you have no holidays and have to work 80 hour weeks so it's actually impossible to spend it?
    - marcusverus 4y ago
      > It's unclear (but doesn't sound like it) if that number is adjusted for Cost of Living. It is adjusted--per another OECD page, "This indicator is in US dollars per capita at current prices and PPPs".[0] > In the US education, healthcare and transportation are significantly more expensive than in most OECD countries. For instance, it's pretty much unheard of across the OECD for education to cost tens to hundreds of thousands of USD and workers to start their work life with massive debts. Healthcare-related bankruptcies are also extremely rare outside of the US. The Bureau of Labor Statistics says the average US household spends ~5K per year on healthcare. The median student loan debt is ~30K (so ~5K per year for 10 years), but only ~20% of Americans hold this debt. I'm not sure where you got the info about transportation cost differences, but I doubt it makes up the difference. > Healthcare-related bankruptcies are also extremely rare outside of the US. That's true! But then, only a small number of households experience this. Meanwhile, the average European has a huge amount of household debt--far more than the average American![1] > And the work-life balance rating of 5.2/10 is pretty damning. What good is that extra money (if it's actually extra money and not going to savings to be able to afford the next surprise medical bill) if you have no holidays and have to work 80 hour weeks so it's actually impossible to spend it? I'm sure it's convenient to pretend that working 80 hour weeks is normal in America, but it's... not. Also, unpaid vacation exists. Take it if you want it. It's nice to have options, huh? [0]https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-disposable-income.htm https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-disposable-income.htm [1]https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-debt.htm#indicator-chart https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-debt.htm#indicator-chart
Convolutional 4y ago
> people thought a union meant they'd get what they wanted. But unions can only get you what they have the power to force employers to give up. And when you only unionise one store that is basically nothing... You should write news copy for stories on HN startups. "They thought they would have big success, but they only acquired one customer so far, which is basically nothing".
- LatteLazy 4y ago
  I had not thought of it like this before, but I think it's more like a start up that has signed up dozens of customers but now has to build the product. Demand is easy in this market, but can anyone actually supply the product in question?
cyclecount 4y ago
Where are you seeing unions selling themselves on more diverse workforces and ethical corporate statements? The unions that are trying to bring tech workers together are pointing to examples like France and Germany where, for example, the recent Google layoffs were essentially blocked entirely. This level of collective bargaining is the selling point.
- SpicyLemonZest 4y ago
  Google's an instructive example, because they have a small union in the US, and their mission statement (https://alphabetworkersunion.org/principles/mission-statement/ https://alphabetworkersunion.org/principles/mission-statemen...) focuses exclusively on corporate ethics and diversity. It wouldn't be fair to say they don't care about wages or layoffs, but they seem to be clear side topics.
  - cyclecount 4y ago
    You read that whole mission statement and your takeaway was their focus was diversity? I think this says more about your biases than about the aims of the Alphabet Workers Union.
    - trieste92 4y ago
      nowhere in that thing do I see any mention of things like work life balance, it's just a bunch of claptrap about "infrastructures of oppression". Whatever that's supposed to mean no wonder it's a small union. No economic incentives? No thanks

nhchris 4y ago

> I am just interested in what they want and how effective the process is at getting it... What they want and what union leadership wants may not be the same.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

didntreadarticl 4y ago

I am just interested in what they want and how effective the process is at getting it You can compare Europe to the USA to see that USA Union membership vs Europe https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2021/03/30/how-us-trade-union-membership-compares-infographic/?sh=17db9fcc66ac https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2021/03/30/how-us... USA Employee conditions vs Europe https://4liberty.eu/everyday-reality-of-employees-in-us-vs-eu/ https://4liberty.eu/everyday-reality-of-employees-in-us-vs-e...

marcusverus 4y ago
Your articles do a good job of presenting all of the ways in which Europeans have it better than Americans. The counterpoint is pretty strong, though: average US household disposable income is ~67% higher than the OECD average. [0]https://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/countries/united-states/#:~:text=These%20assessments%20are%20based%20on,USD%2030%20490%20a%20year https://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/countries/united-states/....
- cyclecount 4y ago
  This is perfect example of how statistics can mislead. For one, the average in the US is far from the median income. But more importantly, these metrics ignore many other factors in standard of living, such as days off per year or the amount of income that you need to put into basic human costs like housing and healthcare.
- sofixa 4y ago
  > average US household disposable income is ~67% higher than the OECD average. It's unclear (but doesn't sound like it) if that number is adjusted for Cost of Living. In the US education, healthcare and transportation are significantly more expensive than in most OECD countries. For instance, it's pretty much unheard of across the OECD for education to cost tens to hundreds of thousands of USD and workers to start their work life with massive debts. Healthcare-related bankruptcies are also extremely rare outside of the US. And the work-life balance rating of 5.2/10 is pretty damning. What good is that extra money (if it's actually extra money and not going to savings to be able to afford the next surprise medical bill) if you have no holidays and have to work 80 hour weeks so it's actually impossible to spend it?
  - marcusverus 4y ago
    > It's unclear (but doesn't sound like it) if that number is adjusted for Cost of Living. It is adjusted--per another OECD page, "This indicator is in US dollars per capita at current prices and PPPs".[0] > In the US education, healthcare and transportation are significantly more expensive than in most OECD countries. For instance, it's pretty much unheard of across the OECD for education to cost tens to hundreds of thousands of USD and workers to start their work life with massive debts. Healthcare-related bankruptcies are also extremely rare outside of the US. The Bureau of Labor Statistics says the average US household spends ~5K per year on healthcare. The median student loan debt is ~30K (so ~5K per year for 10 years), but only ~20% of Americans hold this debt. I'm not sure where you got the info about transportation cost differences, but I doubt it makes up the difference. > Healthcare-related bankruptcies are also extremely rare outside of the US. That's true! But then, only a small number of households experience this. Meanwhile, the average European has a huge amount of household debt--far more than the average American![1] > And the work-life balance rating of 5.2/10 is pretty damning. What good is that extra money (if it's actually extra money and not going to savings to be able to afford the next surprise medical bill) if you have no holidays and have to work 80 hour weeks so it's actually impossible to spend it? I'm sure it's convenient to pretend that working 80 hour weeks is normal in America, but it's... not. Also, unpaid vacation exists. Take it if you want it. It's nice to have options, huh? [0]https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-disposable-income.htm https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-disposable-income.htm [1]https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-debt.htm#indicator-chart https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-debt.htm#indicator-chart

Convolutional 4y ago

> people thought a union meant they'd get what they wanted. But unions can only get you what they have the power to force employers to give up. And when you only unionise one store that is basically nothing... You should write news copy for stories on HN startups. "They thought they would have big success, but they only acquired one customer so far, which is basically nothing".

LatteLazy 4y ago
I had not thought of it like this before, but I think it's more like a start up that has signed up dozens of customers but now has to build the product. Demand is easy in this market, but can anyone actually supply the product in question?

cyclecount 4y ago

Where are you seeing unions selling themselves on more diverse workforces and ethical corporate statements? The unions that are trying to bring tech workers together are pointing to examples like France and Germany where, for example, the recent Google layoffs were essentially blocked entirely. This level of collective bargaining is the selling point.

SpicyLemonZest 4y ago
Google's an instructive example, because they have a small union in the US, and their mission statement (https://alphabetworkersunion.org/principles/mission-statement/ https://alphabetworkersunion.org/principles/mission-statemen...) focuses exclusively on corporate ethics and diversity. It wouldn't be fair to say they don't care about wages or layoffs, but they seem to be clear side topics.
- cyclecount 4y ago
  You read that whole mission statement and your takeaway was their focus was diversity? I think this says more about your biases than about the aims of the Alphabet Workers Union.
  - trieste92 4y ago
    nowhere in that thing do I see any mention of things like work life balance, it's just a bunch of claptrap about "infrastructures of oppression". Whatever that's supposed to mean no wonder it's a small union. No economic incentives? No thanks