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I think it's fair to include in our assessment how much these people would be suffering if these jobs weren't available. People take these jobs because they're

I think it's fair to include in our assessment how much these people would be suffering if these jobs weren't available. People take these jobs because they're the best thing available. They definitely suck when compared to our sit-in-a-chair-programming-all-day jobs, but would they even be able to afford to live without them? The solution is probably for these places to voluntarily start providing better working conditions and pay, which is unlikely to happen. However, I can't say with certainty that taking those jobs away from them and bringing them back here is going to provide a net gain for those people.

forensic 15y ago
You're so timid. The solution is obvious. Take wealth from the privileged superrich and use it to educate the poor. And I mean actual education, like khans academy, not fake education, like American public schools (politically correct obedience training) When 1% of the population hordes 50% of the wealth through nepotism, cronyism, monopolies, oligopolies, and bribing politicians, the solution to poverty is obvious. Guillotines. The markets can't be free when bribery, nepotism, cronyism, monopoly and oligopoly dominate them. Free the markets from the cartels of privilege.
- temphn 15y ago
  Communism and the French Revolution didn't solve poverty. Quite the opposite, China was far more brutal and unequal under communism than capitalism. And Salman Khan can do Khan Academy because he was able to become super rich from Wall Street.
  - forensic 15y ago
    Who said anything about communism? The French revolution was ultimately a huge success that robbed countless monarchies of their power. Instead of requiring teachers to slave away on wall street before they teach, we should just pay them for every pupil who goes to them. Let's organize society based on simple scientific observations instead of having faith in the superrich masters of the world. Your faith in the superrich reminds me of an evangelical Christian having faith in their god regardless of how bankrupt that god has shown himself to be. It's time society arranged itself according to the wisdom of the scientists instead of the authoritarian superrich and their evangelical slaves.
    - tsotha 15y ago
      >Let's organize society based on simple scientific observations instead of having faith in the superrich masters of the world. Just out of curiosity... who do you intend should make these "simple scientific observations"?
      - georgieporgie 15y ago
        Well, probably scientists. I'd rather that we, as a nation, consult with experts (for example, social scientists and really good educators), come up with a ten year plan, and execute on that plan consistently. If the plan works, great, if not, tune it and execute another iteration. Sort of like glacial-paced Agile for governments. Instead, what we have now is mostly a bunch of "common sense" stuff that really means status quo, which gets disrupted every single time a politician comes into office, anywhere.
        nradov 15y ago
        How naive, to believe that anointed technocrats could somehow make better resource allocation decisions than the free market.
        olalonde 15y ago
        You have just more or less described how the Chinese government operates.
        deleted 15y ago
        [deleted]
        anamax 15y ago
        > I'd rather that we, as a nation, consult with experts (for example, social scientists and really good educators), come up with a ten year plan, and execute on that plan consistently. Good for you, but what's actually likely to happen? I note that the department of education can do those things today, or 20 years ago, but didn't. What makes you think that this time will be different?
- white_devil 15y ago
  I know what you're talking about. But you know, the real problem is human nature, and its selfishness and greed. It's those two that cause all of the problems you've listed. Basically, human nature is an intractable problem.
  - forensic 15y ago
    4% of the population commits the far majority of atrocities. That 4% is made up of the psychopaths - people genetically endowed with no conscience. Psychologists and sociologists studying sociopathy have estimated that there are huge numbers of sociopaths in decision making positions who make the calls in favor of greed and brutality. Conscience bound people find it very hard to cause the deaths of innocent children in Nigeria though oil corporation policy. Conscience bound people often will quit their job rather than make a decision for greed when that decision will harm people. This is precisely how sociopaths rise to power - they will do the job and take pleasure in it. Now American institutions and corporations are run by sociopaths and we are surprised that evil is so prevalent.
    - white_devil 15y ago
      > 4% of the population commits the far majority of atrocities. That 4% is made up of the psychopaths - people genetically endowed with no conscience. I didn't mean people like Hitler and Stalin. Plenty of those in history, of course. But think about politicians all over the world. Surely you'd agree that a lot more than 4% of them are mostly just concerned with their personal gain, instead of the common good. That's a result of the selfishness and greed inherent in human nature. Even good people are selfish. I'm good but I'm also selfish. On the other hand, take Julian Assange for example. Now that guy is just about as selfless as humans come, but how many percent of the world's population do you think are like him? Maybe even fewer than the psychopaths you mentioned. > Conscience bound people often will quit their job rather than make a decision for greed when that decision will harm people. Sure, some would. But on the other hand, there are 21 thousand people working for Monsanto. Do you think only the very top executives know how evil the company is? What about, say, all of the so-called "financial services industry"?
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- rdouble 15y ago
  The problem with that approach is a bunch of smart and interesting non-oligarchs also get the chop during the ensuing Reign of Terror. Then after a while, Napoleon steps in to fill the power vacuum.
  - forensic 15y ago
    The lives of the poor are of equal value to the lives of the rich. So the calculation must include the suffering throngs created by privileged and selfish nepotists and cronies. Literal guillotines are unnecessary. Just take away their money, prosecute the criminals, and hold meritocratic elections free from the media circus. Creating a better world is common sense. Tie the hands of the psychopaths among the superrich, discredit the mentally ill Christian fascists, and use scientific reasoning to fix the government and economy. There is no shortage of resources when you recognize that the vast wealth of the superrich is unearned and won throug bribery, cronyism, nepotism, monopoly, and oligopoly. Wealth amassed through those methods is illegitimate.
    - deadc0de 15y ago
      Totally agree, man! Education is always the key.
    - tsotha 15y ago
      >There is no shortage of resources when you recognize that the vast wealth of the superrich is unearned and won throug bribery, cronyism, nepotism, monopoly, and oligopoly. I don't see any evidence this is true as a general rule. In some cases, yes, but not the general case.
      - forensic 15y ago
        Then you're blind. The far majority of the superrich inherited their wealth. This is called nepotism and it's bad for meritocracy. The far majority of corporate and government leaders are there through cronyism. This is corrupt. Mega corporations like halliburton enrich themselves with no bid contracts which they get by bribing officials. This is bribery. Cellular networks and ISPs form oligopolies instead of competing with each other. The medical industry does this causing death and poverty. The wealth of the superrich was inordinately acquired by combining monopoly, oligopoly, cronyism, bribery, and nepotism into one big ball of corrupt selfishness. This wealth is not earned legitimately through production and competition, it is stolen by distorting the market and corrupting the government both of which are fundamentally immoral. Criminals must be stripped of their loot and sent to prison. Start with Lloyd Blankfein who scammed his own clients and made his riches by exploiting the trust inherent in the client-professional relationship that is a pillar of civilized society.

forensic 15y ago

You're so timid. The solution is obvious. Take wealth from the privileged superrich and use it to educate the poor. And I mean actual education, like khans academy, not fake education, like American public schools (politically correct obedience training) When 1% of the population hordes 50% of the wealth through nepotism, cronyism, monopolies, oligopolies, and bribing politicians, the solution to poverty is obvious. Guillotines. The markets can't be free when bribery, nepotism, cronyism, monopoly and oligopoly dominate them. Free the markets from the cartels of privilege.

temphn 15y ago
Communism and the French Revolution didn't solve poverty. Quite the opposite, China was far more brutal and unequal under communism than capitalism. And Salman Khan can do Khan Academy because he was able to become super rich from Wall Street.
- forensic 15y ago
  Who said anything about communism? The French revolution was ultimately a huge success that robbed countless monarchies of their power. Instead of requiring teachers to slave away on wall street before they teach, we should just pay them for every pupil who goes to them. Let's organize society based on simple scientific observations instead of having faith in the superrich masters of the world. Your faith in the superrich reminds me of an evangelical Christian having faith in their god regardless of how bankrupt that god has shown himself to be. It's time society arranged itself according to the wisdom of the scientists instead of the authoritarian superrich and their evangelical slaves.
  - tsotha 15y ago
    >Let's organize society based on simple scientific observations instead of having faith in the superrich masters of the world. Just out of curiosity... who do you intend should make these "simple scientific observations"?
    - georgieporgie 15y ago
      Well, probably scientists. I'd rather that we, as a nation, consult with experts (for example, social scientists and really good educators), come up with a ten year plan, and execute on that plan consistently. If the plan works, great, if not, tune it and execute another iteration. Sort of like glacial-paced Agile for governments. Instead, what we have now is mostly a bunch of "common sense" stuff that really means status quo, which gets disrupted every single time a politician comes into office, anywhere.
      - nradov 15y ago
        How naive, to believe that anointed technocrats could somehow make better resource allocation decisions than the free market.
      - olalonde 15y ago
        You have just more or less described how the Chinese government operates.
        deleted 15y ago
        [deleted]
      - anamax 15y ago
        > I'd rather that we, as a nation, consult with experts (for example, social scientists and really good educators), come up with a ten year plan, and execute on that plan consistently. Good for you, but what's actually likely to happen? I note that the department of education can do those things today, or 20 years ago, but didn't. What makes you think that this time will be different?
white_devil 15y ago
I know what you're talking about. But you know, the real problem is human nature, and its selfishness and greed. It's those two that cause all of the problems you've listed. Basically, human nature is an intractable problem.
- forensic 15y ago
  4% of the population commits the far majority of atrocities. That 4% is made up of the psychopaths - people genetically endowed with no conscience. Psychologists and sociologists studying sociopathy have estimated that there are huge numbers of sociopaths in decision making positions who make the calls in favor of greed and brutality. Conscience bound people find it very hard to cause the deaths of innocent children in Nigeria though oil corporation policy. Conscience bound people often will quit their job rather than make a decision for greed when that decision will harm people. This is precisely how sociopaths rise to power - they will do the job and take pleasure in it. Now American institutions and corporations are run by sociopaths and we are surprised that evil is so prevalent.
  - white_devil 15y ago
    > 4% of the population commits the far majority of atrocities. That 4% is made up of the psychopaths - people genetically endowed with no conscience. I didn't mean people like Hitler and Stalin. Plenty of those in history, of course. But think about politicians all over the world. Surely you'd agree that a lot more than 4% of them are mostly just concerned with their personal gain, instead of the common good. That's a result of the selfishness and greed inherent in human nature. Even good people are selfish. I'm good but I'm also selfish. On the other hand, take Julian Assange for example. Now that guy is just about as selfless as humans come, but how many percent of the world's population do you think are like him? Maybe even fewer than the psychopaths you mentioned. > Conscience bound people often will quit their job rather than make a decision for greed when that decision will harm people. Sure, some would. But on the other hand, there are 21 thousand people working for Monsanto. Do you think only the very top executives know how evil the company is? What about, say, all of the so-called "financial services industry"?
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
rdouble 15y ago
The problem with that approach is a bunch of smart and interesting non-oligarchs also get the chop during the ensuing Reign of Terror. Then after a while, Napoleon steps in to fill the power vacuum.
- forensic 15y ago
  The lives of the poor are of equal value to the lives of the rich. So the calculation must include the suffering throngs created by privileged and selfish nepotists and cronies. Literal guillotines are unnecessary. Just take away their money, prosecute the criminals, and hold meritocratic elections free from the media circus. Creating a better world is common sense. Tie the hands of the psychopaths among the superrich, discredit the mentally ill Christian fascists, and use scientific reasoning to fix the government and economy. There is no shortage of resources when you recognize that the vast wealth of the superrich is unearned and won throug bribery, cronyism, nepotism, monopoly, and oligopoly. Wealth amassed through those methods is illegitimate.
  - deadc0de 15y ago
    Totally agree, man! Education is always the key.
  - tsotha 15y ago
    >There is no shortage of resources when you recognize that the vast wealth of the superrich is unearned and won throug bribery, cronyism, nepotism, monopoly, and oligopoly. I don't see any evidence this is true as a general rule. In some cases, yes, but not the general case.
    - forensic 15y ago
      Then you're blind. The far majority of the superrich inherited their wealth. This is called nepotism and it's bad for meritocracy. The far majority of corporate and government leaders are there through cronyism. This is corrupt. Mega corporations like halliburton enrich themselves with no bid contracts which they get by bribing officials. This is bribery. Cellular networks and ISPs form oligopolies instead of competing with each other. The medical industry does this causing death and poverty. The wealth of the superrich was inordinately acquired by combining monopoly, oligopoly, cronyism, bribery, and nepotism into one big ball of corrupt selfishness. This wealth is not earned legitimately through production and competition, it is stolen by distorting the market and corrupting the government both of which are fundamentally immoral. Criminals must be stripped of their loot and sent to prison. Start with Lloyd Blankfein who scammed his own clients and made his riches by exploiting the trust inherent in the client-professional relationship that is a pillar of civilized society.