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Touché, maybe the wrong word choice by me. The point was that moral fabric changing doesn't actually harm society.

by slg 4y ago

jimbokun 4y ago
Pretty sure it would be trivial to find historical examples where it absolutely did harm society.
- notch898a 4y ago
  This is part of the reason why increasing federalization and consolidation of governments of the world worries me. A big part of progress in society is a crapshoot and arguably a lot of what we do is inadvertently harmful to society. Allowing experimentation in relatively small segments of the population compartmentalizes risk while allowing everyone else to copy it if they see it works.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
    How much copying is actually happening? I live in the US, and our healthcare system is objectively terrible. There are numerous examples of systems in other countries that provide better care for more people for less, but we refuse to adopt any of them. First past the post voting is also obviously terrible, and many better ways are available and have had successful implementation, but nothing changes here. Theoretically what you're saying makes sense, but it doesn't seem to match reality. Instead we just get a lot of tribalism, war, and death.
    - iszomer 4y ago
      Perhaps it is more of a question on scalability. It is often claimed that Taiwan has a universal healthcare system in place (sustainability is often challenged) in which cannot be replicated in the US due to demographic and geographic factors let alone political ones.
    - jimbokun 4y ago
      Experimenting with health care systems at the state level would be a perfect example where more experimentation at scales smaller than the national level would be very helpful.
- slg 4y ago
  Sorry, that is where I duck out of the discussion. You just said it would be trivial to give me an actual counterexample and yet you apparently aren't willing to put that trivial effort into actually finding one. You clearly don't want to put any effort into this conversation so I won't either.
  - jimbokun 4y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution
    - maxbond 4y ago
      A dictatorial regime using violence to force society into a certain mold isn't at all the same as one generation organically having different values than a previous one.
      - notch898a 4y ago
        Show me a generation that has been free of force of violence. This is shaping out to be another classic HN case where an example is demanded and then methodically shut down because it doesn't reach someone's ideal version of humanity. The awesome thing is he could have given literally any example, and the force of violence influence on value bit still would have been true.
        iszomer 4y ago
        > ..a generation that has been free of force of violence. Yakutia?
        maxbond 4y ago
        A generation is not a dictatorial regime, and "organic" is operative. There is a world of difference between values changing over time organically and a small group of dictatorial leaders deciding they are going to beat society into submission. I would ask you respond to me and the things I said and not to HN as a whole (or to what people said in this particular discussion), whatever other conversations you think this relates to, I don't think I was there and I don't think I'm responsible for them. By and large I stand by the things I've said here (there are things I'd take back if I could, but I digress), but I certainly won't be held responsible for things other people have said and that I'm not even aware of. I'm not as unreasonable as you're implying, this example was flawed. You could turn this criticism around on your comment, "this is a classic HN whatever, where any criticism is dismissed for no reason. The crazy thing is I could've criticized this for any reason, or cited any amount of evidence, and it still wouldn't have been enough."

Touché, maybe the wrong word choice by me. The point was that moral fabric changing doesn't actually harm society.

by slg 4y ago

Touché, maybe the wrong word choice by me. The point was that moral fabric changing doesn't actually harm society.

jimbokun 4y ago

Pretty sure it would be trivial to find historical examples where it absolutely did harm society.

notch898a 4y ago
This is part of the reason why increasing federalization and consolidation of governments of the world worries me. A big part of progress in society is a crapshoot and arguably a lot of what we do is inadvertently harmful to society. Allowing experimentation in relatively small segments of the population compartmentalizes risk while allowing everyone else to copy it if they see it works.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
  How much copying is actually happening? I live in the US, and our healthcare system is objectively terrible. There are numerous examples of systems in other countries that provide better care for more people for less, but we refuse to adopt any of them. First past the post voting is also obviously terrible, and many better ways are available and have had successful implementation, but nothing changes here. Theoretically what you're saying makes sense, but it doesn't seem to match reality. Instead we just get a lot of tribalism, war, and death.
  - iszomer 4y ago
    Perhaps it is more of a question on scalability. It is often claimed that Taiwan has a universal healthcare system in place (sustainability is often challenged) in which cannot be replicated in the US due to demographic and geographic factors let alone political ones.
  - jimbokun 4y ago
    Experimenting with health care systems at the state level would be a perfect example where more experimentation at scales smaller than the national level would be very helpful.
slg 4y ago
Sorry, that is where I duck out of the discussion. You just said it would be trivial to give me an actual counterexample and yet you apparently aren't willing to put that trivial effort into actually finding one. You clearly don't want to put any effort into this conversation so I won't either.
- jimbokun 4y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution
  - maxbond 4y ago
    A dictatorial regime using violence to force society into a certain mold isn't at all the same as one generation organically having different values than a previous one.
    - notch898a 4y ago
      Show me a generation that has been free of force of violence. This is shaping out to be another classic HN case where an example is demanded and then methodically shut down because it doesn't reach someone's ideal version of humanity. The awesome thing is he could have given literally any example, and the force of violence influence on value bit still would have been true.
      - iszomer 4y ago
        > ..a generation that has been free of force of violence. Yakutia?
      - maxbond 4y ago
        A generation is not a dictatorial regime, and "organic" is operative. There is a world of difference between values changing over time organically and a small group of dictatorial leaders deciding they are going to beat society into submission. I would ask you respond to me and the things I said and not to HN as a whole (or to what people said in this particular discussion), whatever other conversations you think this relates to, I don't think I was there and I don't think I'm responsible for them. By and large I stand by the things I've said here (there are things I'd take back if I could, but I digress), but I certainly won't be held responsible for things other people have said and that I'm not even aware of. I'm not as unreasonable as you're implying, this example was flawed. You could turn this criticism around on your comment, "this is a classic HN whatever, where any criticism is dismissed for no reason. The crazy thing is I could've criticized this for any reason, or cited any amount of evidence, and it still wouldn't have been enough."