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So free speech to express any opinion but not free speech to respond to opinions expressed? 99% of the time that someone decries the "death of free speech", it

by samtp 4y ago

So free speech to express any opinion but not free speech to respond to opinions expressed? 99% of the time that someone decries the "death of free speech", it boils down to them not wanting to hear criticism for expressing ignorant or hateful ideas. Just because you can say something doesn't mean you should. And if you do say something that is stupid or is harmful to others, you should expect push back. If you have no defense for that push back, it's a clear sign that you should either re-evaluate your opinion or express yourself in a more thoughtful manner. This is a lesson that most people learn in grade school. But one of the big issues today is that a lot of people believe that others not accepting their opinion is a form of persecution. They are so self-centered that criticism of what they say is taken as an insult to them personally. Criticism of these people lead to no moments of self-reflection and no moments of personal growth. The big question for me is how do we move past this moment without a large number of people realizing that they are acting like spoiled children. Speech is as free as it's ever been. What's different is an entitlement behind expressing opinions that destroys any meaningful discussion.

jimbokun 4y ago
"But one of the big issues today is that a lot of people believe that others not accepting their opinion is a form of persecution. They are so self-centered that criticism of what they say is taken as an insult to them personally. Criticism of these people lead to no moments of self-reflection and no moment" The colloquial term for these people is "woke".
- samtp 4y ago
  Well under oath in court, DeSantis General Counsel Ryan Newman defined woke as: “the belief there are systemic injustices in American society and the need to address them” [0] https://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/editorials/article269675311.html https://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/editorials/article269675... What do you think is wrong with the belief that there are systemic injustices in American society that should be addressed?
  - jimbokun 4y ago
    I like my definition of "woke" better.
    - samtp 4y ago
      Using your definition, most people who use the term "woke" as an insult are in fact super woke themselves.
      - jimbokun 4y ago
        Sure.
      - jimbokun 4y ago
        Here's an example where everyone involved seems to be employing woke thinking, from opposite political angles: https://nypost.com/2023/02/26/white-student-sues-historically-black-college-howard-university-for-2m-over-racial-discrimination/ https://nypost.com/2023/02/26/white-student-sues-historicall... Not arguing about facts and opinions, just about who was more "harmed" by the other parties speech. Not that the arguments presented are dumb and ridiculous, or even ridiculing a person for holding those views. But an attempt to litigate harms based on their individual identities. (The label "white panther" I find pretty funny and a good example of battling bad speech with counter speech.)
  - JackAndJack 4y ago
    America has largest number of black millionaires. Is that what you call systemic injustices?
    - defrost 4y ago
      ? More of a non sequitur putting those two sentences together. Tulsa had a great many rich black businesses .. how did that work out?
      - JackAndJack 4y ago
tristor 4y ago
> it boils down to them not wanting to hear criticism for expressing ignorant or hateful ideas. Or, in actuality, it mostly means they’re tired of people stripping all of the nuance away from their ideas, casting them in the most extreme light, and then deriding them as hateful and bigoted without any critical thought. I understand the person you originally were responding to, because I feel much the same way. I used to be able to engage in conversations with random people about the world, and while this still happens occasionally, most people either self-censor or blatantly straw man you to score points. The types of deeply nuanced, sometimes multiple day/week long conversations and debates I used to see on IRC in my youth have ceased to exist online, and can really only be had in person now with close friends who will not immediately act in bad faith.
- wcarron 4y ago
  Indeed. My wife, whom i consider relatively open-minded in today's society, is somewhat offput by the fact that I engage with and consider 'conservatives' friends. There is a pervasive and insidious association with disagreement with 'evil' or 'wrong' in society today. People who espouse themselves as tolerant, are not. Any opposition to a held belief is considered 'wrong', inherently. This attitude is destroying society. There is no place for nuance in general discourse anymore. It bothers me greatly. I have no solution, only an ability to despair.
  - samtp 4y ago
    I wouldn't consider your wife that open minded if she is off put by you engaging with "conservative" friends. There is nothing off putting about that. But if your "conservative" friends happen to drop openly misogynist, racist, and/or xenophobic things inappropriately into casual conversation - she might be justified in feeling a little off put since she is probably worried that you also hold similar hurtful views but are more careful with what you say.
    - notch898a 4y ago
      This may be accurate, but a couple notes. 1) Other ideologies are not immune to having people with such views, so I'm not sure why to single out conservatives for those kind of worries. 2) A truly open mind might be open to 'racist' viewpoints, such as blacks are more likely to suffer from sickle cell anemia and this trait is inferior to whites in regions without mosquitoes. That's just a straight up racist viewpoint (by the dictionary definition) coupled with the assertion whites legit have a characteristic here that is racially superior in places without malaria. I wonder how many other biological traits like this, of any 'race' (to the extent such a concept exists), we've thrown aside because scientists are just too scared to investigate it.
jwalton 4y ago
> 99% of the time that someone decries the "death of free speech", it boils down to them not wanting to hear criticism for expressing ignorant or hateful ideas. OP hasn’t made any claims (that I can see) that they wish to avoid criticism for their ignorant and hateful ideas, and you’re slinging shade at them. Maybe they’re in the 99%, but… maybe they’re in the 1%. You can’t be too upset when people react to you negatively - if you say something harmful to others, you should expect pushback too.
- samtp 4y ago
  I think you seriously misread my comment if you thought that everything I talked about was a direct reply to the parent comment and specifically about the person who posted it. I was not upset or objecting to push back. I was, as people often do in replies to non-substantive comments, using it as an opportunity to expand on what I previously posted.
scns 4y ago
> a large number of people realizing that they are acting like spoiled children I'd say they are stuck in a victim mentality. How do we get these people to leave that behind and to start being responsible?

by samtp 4y ago

jimbokun 4y ago

"But one of the big issues today is that a lot of people believe that others not accepting their opinion is a form of persecution. They are so self-centered that criticism of what they say is taken as an insult to them personally. Criticism of these people lead to no moments of self-reflection and no moment" The colloquial term for these people is "woke".

samtp 4y ago
Well under oath in court, DeSantis General Counsel Ryan Newman defined woke as: “the belief there are systemic injustices in American society and the need to address them” [0] https://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/editorials/article269675311.html https://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/editorials/article269675... What do you think is wrong with the belief that there are systemic injustices in American society that should be addressed?
- jimbokun 4y ago
  I like my definition of "woke" better.
  - samtp 4y ago
    Using your definition, most people who use the term "woke" as an insult are in fact super woke themselves.
    - jimbokun 4y ago
      Sure.
    - jimbokun 4y ago
      Here's an example where everyone involved seems to be employing woke thinking, from opposite political angles: https://nypost.com/2023/02/26/white-student-sues-historically-black-college-howard-university-for-2m-over-racial-discrimination/ https://nypost.com/2023/02/26/white-student-sues-historicall... Not arguing about facts and opinions, just about who was more "harmed" by the other parties speech. Not that the arguments presented are dumb and ridiculous, or even ridiculing a person for holding those views. But an attempt to litigate harms based on their individual identities. (The label "white panther" I find pretty funny and a good example of battling bad speech with counter speech.)
- JackAndJack 4y ago
  America has largest number of black millionaires. Is that what you call systemic injustices?
  - defrost 4y ago
    ? More of a non sequitur putting those two sentences together. Tulsa had a great many rich black businesses .. how did that work out?
    - JackAndJack 4y ago

tristor 4y ago

> it boils down to them not wanting to hear criticism for expressing ignorant or hateful ideas. Or, in actuality, it mostly means they’re tired of people stripping all of the nuance away from their ideas, casting them in the most extreme light, and then deriding them as hateful and bigoted without any critical thought. I understand the person you originally were responding to, because I feel much the same way. I used to be able to engage in conversations with random people about the world, and while this still happens occasionally, most people either self-censor or blatantly straw man you to score points. The types of deeply nuanced, sometimes multiple day/week long conversations and debates I used to see on IRC in my youth have ceased to exist online, and can really only be had in person now with close friends who will not immediately act in bad faith.

wcarron 4y ago
Indeed. My wife, whom i consider relatively open-minded in today's society, is somewhat offput by the fact that I engage with and consider 'conservatives' friends. There is a pervasive and insidious association with disagreement with 'evil' or 'wrong' in society today. People who espouse themselves as tolerant, are not. Any opposition to a held belief is considered 'wrong', inherently. This attitude is destroying society. There is no place for nuance in general discourse anymore. It bothers me greatly. I have no solution, only an ability to despair.
- samtp 4y ago
  I wouldn't consider your wife that open minded if she is off put by you engaging with "conservative" friends. There is nothing off putting about that. But if your "conservative" friends happen to drop openly misogynist, racist, and/or xenophobic things inappropriately into casual conversation - she might be justified in feeling a little off put since she is probably worried that you also hold similar hurtful views but are more careful with what you say.
  - notch898a 4y ago
    This may be accurate, but a couple notes. 1) Other ideologies are not immune to having people with such views, so I'm not sure why to single out conservatives for those kind of worries. 2) A truly open mind might be open to 'racist' viewpoints, such as blacks are more likely to suffer from sickle cell anemia and this trait is inferior to whites in regions without mosquitoes. That's just a straight up racist viewpoint (by the dictionary definition) coupled with the assertion whites legit have a characteristic here that is racially superior in places without malaria. I wonder how many other biological traits like this, of any 'race' (to the extent such a concept exists), we've thrown aside because scientists are just too scared to investigate it.

jwalton 4y ago

> 99% of the time that someone decries the "death of free speech", it boils down to them not wanting to hear criticism for expressing ignorant or hateful ideas. OP hasn’t made any claims (that I can see) that they wish to avoid criticism for their ignorant and hateful ideas, and you’re slinging shade at them. Maybe they’re in the 99%, but… maybe they’re in the 1%. You can’t be too upset when people react to you negatively - if you say something harmful to others, you should expect pushback too.

samtp 4y ago
I think you seriously misread my comment if you thought that everything I talked about was a direct reply to the parent comment and specifically about the person who posted it. I was not upset or objecting to push back. I was, as people often do in replies to non-substantive comments, using it as an opportunity to expand on what I previously posted.

scns 4y ago

> a large number of people realizing that they are acting like spoiled children I'd say they are stuck in a victim mentality. How do we get these people to leave that behind and to start being responsible?