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If you think the situation is any better for young women, you're in for a shock. From where I'm sitting, the propaganda targeting women is far, far more pervasi

If you think the situation is any better for young women, you're in for a shock. From where I'm sitting, the propaganda targeting women is far, far more pervasive and destructive. Everything about their relationships - the why, when, who and how - is undermined in an alarming majority of our institutions. Date many and often with no inhibitions, "have fun", don't get "tied down", delay marriage and family or abstain altogether, date men with little in common, date women, prioritise career, kids are disgusting and expensive, kids threaten your Instagram physique, pointless travelling > family, make easy money on OnlyFans, there's the psychological impact (distortion of standards) of having easy access to sex with very high quality men who would never "settle" for them in marriage, and do all of this with reckless abandon because if anyone is not enthusiastically supportive then the issue is with them not you and your sordid past. It's little wonder so many women wake up one day, they're 38, single, childless, and depressed. The antidepressant usage among Western women is shocking. I would argue that a very large contributing factor in our young men's disillusionment with dating is a product of the damage being done to our young women.

amir734jj 4y ago
> I would argue that a very large contributing factor in our young men's disillusionment with dating is a product of the damage being done to our young women Can you please elaborate more on this conclusion? I agree with everything you said until that statement.
anovikov 4y ago
OK delaying marriage and family is normal for all countries and all cultures, there's nothing to be done about it and it has nothing to do with Tinder let alone with OnlyFans lol, it's simply because age of maturity has increased due to higher impact of career and education. Of all things you said, i agree only with the "distortion of standards" thing. Again, it's global, has nothing to do with the U.S. or "West" in general, happens everywhere - even more so in more vertical, traditional Asian cultures (with corresponding decline of birthrates). Yet, it's a problem i can see no solution for unless single parenthood is completely normalised (which might require elimination of religion).
- Beaver117 4y ago
  You think Tinder and OnlyFans had no effect on marriage? I assume you also think Uber had no effect on car ownership and Airbnb had no effect on rents? I urge you to do more research
- klipt 4y ago
  > single parenthood is completely normalised How? Would the government pay for surrogates for single men? Unless by "single parenthood" you actually just mean "single motherhood", which hardly seems like the way to run a gender equal society.
  - anovikov 4y ago
    Forget gender equal society, question now is about having some next generation at all. This Tinder-inequality thing means another deep reduction in birth rate. We need to get birthrate fixed before thinking of equality etc. issues
    - klipt 4y ago
      Seems much simpler to just ban tinder than to rework the whole of society to encourage single motherhood. It's already harder to raise kids with a nuclear family than the extended families of the past, atomizing further into single parents seems like another step backwards.
csomar 4y ago
Because, eh, it's true? Kids might be good for society but they are not for the particular woman/individual in question. These woman are making the right choice individually. I see lots of happy 35-45 woman doing brunches in mall. Something tells me they are not missing too much on the family bandwagon.
- JesusLovesEwe 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - werkjohann 4y ago
    Why is the thought of other people finding happiness in a way different from you “gut-wrenching”? Such a strong emotional reaction to a lifestyle that has no direct impact on you doesn’t seem healthy.
    - bmn__ 4y ago
      The strong emotional reaction is natural, it's the protector instinct coming to the front. You have to explain how you came to the conclusion it's not healthy because it's not apparent to me. Is it because you believe the women when they say they are finding happiness? A dispassionate observer notices this is delusion, in reality they do not, quite the opposite. You are probably right that there is no direct impact, but there is an indirect society-wide impact, the video under discussion touches on that.
- bmn__ 4y ago
  It's easy to put up a happy face in public for an hour a week. Then they return to their empty home, where her only friends, Mr Venlafaxine, Mr Ginbottle and Mr Meow await, and it turns into a sour grimace. If you care to seek out the truth, then don't watch them at brunch, watch them vent in Tiktok videos with titles like "where are all the good men?" and "why won't any of my dates commit?".
- yucky 4y ago
  > I see lots of happy 35-45 woman doing brunches in mall. Ah yes, the Prosac Pose.
thefz 4y ago
So basically not adhering to your standard of what a woman should do is wrong?
- bmn__ 4y ago
  Is it wrong to want women to be happy? The causes enumerated by GP and touched upon in the video under discussion are real and destructive, therefore I would like you to be substantial in your criticism, not simply state a contrarian opinion.
  - thefz 4y ago
    Not being a contrarian, the comment I replied to not so implicitly deprives women of agency over their lives, because so gullible and sheepish that they are driven by some force to act in a certain way. I think let women act outside the norm if they want to,and don't be scared by a woman that steers from motherhood.
    - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
      Cultural influences have, you know, influence. They aren't totally determining, people can push back and choose something else, but they're going to drive a lot of people to go with the flow. That has effects on the society as a whole, even if individual members have agency to not follow the social pressure.
    - bmn__ 4y ago
      Thanks for taking me up on the prompt and spending the time to pad out the opinion with substance, this way a sensible debate is possible. You have a few misconceptions on this topic. I will argue on user JesusLovesEwe's behalf because to me it is apparent that he and I concur and want to steer into the same direction, just for a (on the surface level) different motivation.¹ I hope he does not mind and I hope his and my courses of thought are as similar in reality as I assume they are. You say we are "scared" by a non-traditional woman. That's wrong, the correct word is concerned. We indulge in our protector instinct and simply want women not come to harm. You say we think women are "gullible and sheepish". That's wrong, the correct word is uninformed. What is happening in reality is that women simply do not know how destructive to themselves and society at large their behaviour is because they were never told what the real consequences are. They hence cannot learn from the bad example and avoid making the mistakes that damage themselves and others. A cultural narrative was created that even portrays the destructive behaviour in good light, I wish you were not complicit in propagating this. You say we think of depriving women of agency. That's wrong, we want to educate, lay out the conclusions, and let them modify their behaviour by themselves. Persuasion, not force. An adult's agency must be informed by accurate information, so the cultural narrative of falsehoods mentioned before must be countered first, and I think that science is a great tool in that fight. If women knew what they will do their future selves, most of them would refrain from living out the destructive behaviour. As an aside, the vast majority of people are not educated in psychology, and thus do not know why they behave the way they behave. The "some force" when it comes to intersexual dynamics is actually mostly instinct, a good deal of learned behaviour, and a little bit of rational thought. IMO the basics of this should be taught to everyone in school. ¹ With a username like that, I must assume he argues from a religiously informed moral angle, which in a sense I see as a shortcut of thought. If we go back in time and see how that doctrine was established, we would find society experimenting, recording, comparing and eventually propagating what works best (or perhaps a local maximum), optimising for stability/overall happiness. I, too, want people to be happy, or at least not fall into the trap of easily avoidable suffering.
uptownfunk 4y ago
I have to agree with this now as a parent of a little girl myself and as non-liberal as it sounds. Human values seem to have completely gone down the drain. Bravery, courage, chivalry and respect of elders. That marriage is a commitment and not to be taken lightly, and not to abandon your wife and kids. Almost every day a new Twitter video comes out of dysfunctional children beating up on an elder for taking their toys away while cowardly students sit back and just watch. Meanwhile women are being told that wanting to have kids and be a mother is just not enough or not desirable anymore. How can we think we are a modern society when women are the ones left raising children on their own when their partners leave them, or are the ones forced to “abort” children when they are put in a difficult position. Maybe it is time to look at becoming Amish..
- midoridensha 4y ago
  >Human values seem to have completely gone down the drain. Bravery, courage, chivalry and respect of elders. So things were better when brave men were happy to march into battle because their feudal lord ordered them to, and they fought to the death with other peasants over some pointless dispute between two warlords?

amir734jj 4y ago

> I would argue that a very large contributing factor in our young men's disillusionment with dating is a product of the damage being done to our young women Can you please elaborate more on this conclusion? I agree with everything you said until that statement.

anovikov 4y ago

OK delaying marriage and family is normal for all countries and all cultures, there's nothing to be done about it and it has nothing to do with Tinder let alone with OnlyFans lol, it's simply because age of maturity has increased due to higher impact of career and education. Of all things you said, i agree only with the "distortion of standards" thing. Again, it's global, has nothing to do with the U.S. or "West" in general, happens everywhere - even more so in more vertical, traditional Asian cultures (with corresponding decline of birthrates). Yet, it's a problem i can see no solution for unless single parenthood is completely normalised (which might require elimination of religion).

Beaver117 4y ago
You think Tinder and OnlyFans had no effect on marriage? I assume you also think Uber had no effect on car ownership and Airbnb had no effect on rents? I urge you to do more research
klipt 4y ago
> single parenthood is completely normalised How? Would the government pay for surrogates for single men? Unless by "single parenthood" you actually just mean "single motherhood", which hardly seems like the way to run a gender equal society.
- anovikov 4y ago
  Forget gender equal society, question now is about having some next generation at all. This Tinder-inequality thing means another deep reduction in birth rate. We need to get birthrate fixed before thinking of equality etc. issues
  - klipt 4y ago
    Seems much simpler to just ban tinder than to rework the whole of society to encourage single motherhood. It's already harder to raise kids with a nuclear family than the extended families of the past, atomizing further into single parents seems like another step backwards.

csomar 4y ago

Because, eh, it's true? Kids might be good for society but they are not for the particular woman/individual in question. These woman are making the right choice individually. I see lots of happy 35-45 woman doing brunches in mall. Something tells me they are not missing too much on the family bandwagon.

JesusLovesEwe 4y ago
[flagged]
- werkjohann 4y ago
  Why is the thought of other people finding happiness in a way different from you “gut-wrenching”? Such a strong emotional reaction to a lifestyle that has no direct impact on you doesn’t seem healthy.
  - bmn__ 4y ago
    The strong emotional reaction is natural, it's the protector instinct coming to the front. You have to explain how you came to the conclusion it's not healthy because it's not apparent to me. Is it because you believe the women when they say they are finding happiness? A dispassionate observer notices this is delusion, in reality they do not, quite the opposite. You are probably right that there is no direct impact, but there is an indirect society-wide impact, the video under discussion touches on that.
bmn__ 4y ago
It's easy to put up a happy face in public for an hour a week. Then they return to their empty home, where her only friends, Mr Venlafaxine, Mr Ginbottle and Mr Meow await, and it turns into a sour grimace. If you care to seek out the truth, then don't watch them at brunch, watch them vent in Tiktok videos with titles like "where are all the good men?" and "why won't any of my dates commit?".
yucky 4y ago
> I see lots of happy 35-45 woman doing brunches in mall. Ah yes, the Prosac Pose.

thefz 4y ago

So basically not adhering to your standard of what a woman should do is wrong?

bmn__ 4y ago
Is it wrong to want women to be happy? The causes enumerated by GP and touched upon in the video under discussion are real and destructive, therefore I would like you to be substantial in your criticism, not simply state a contrarian opinion.
- thefz 4y ago
  Not being a contrarian, the comment I replied to not so implicitly deprives women of agency over their lives, because so gullible and sheepish that they are driven by some force to act in a certain way. I think let women act outside the norm if they want to,and don't be scared by a woman that steers from motherhood.
  - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
    Cultural influences have, you know, influence. They aren't totally determining, people can push back and choose something else, but they're going to drive a lot of people to go with the flow. That has effects on the society as a whole, even if individual members have agency to not follow the social pressure.
  - bmn__ 4y ago
    Thanks for taking me up on the prompt and spending the time to pad out the opinion with substance, this way a sensible debate is possible. You have a few misconceptions on this topic. I will argue on user JesusLovesEwe's behalf because to me it is apparent that he and I concur and want to steer into the same direction, just for a (on the surface level) different motivation.¹ I hope he does not mind and I hope his and my courses of thought are as similar in reality as I assume they are. You say we are "scared" by a non-traditional woman. That's wrong, the correct word is concerned. We indulge in our protector instinct and simply want women not come to harm. You say we think women are "gullible and sheepish". That's wrong, the correct word is uninformed. What is happening in reality is that women simply do not know how destructive to themselves and society at large their behaviour is because they were never told what the real consequences are. They hence cannot learn from the bad example and avoid making the mistakes that damage themselves and others. A cultural narrative was created that even portrays the destructive behaviour in good light, I wish you were not complicit in propagating this. You say we think of depriving women of agency. That's wrong, we want to educate, lay out the conclusions, and let them modify their behaviour by themselves. Persuasion, not force. An adult's agency must be informed by accurate information, so the cultural narrative of falsehoods mentioned before must be countered first, and I think that science is a great tool in that fight. If women knew what they will do their future selves, most of them would refrain from living out the destructive behaviour. As an aside, the vast majority of people are not educated in psychology, and thus do not know why they behave the way they behave. The "some force" when it comes to intersexual dynamics is actually mostly instinct, a good deal of learned behaviour, and a little bit of rational thought. IMO the basics of this should be taught to everyone in school. ¹ With a username like that, I must assume he argues from a religiously informed moral angle, which in a sense I see as a shortcut of thought. If we go back in time and see how that doctrine was established, we would find society experimenting, recording, comparing and eventually propagating what works best (or perhaps a local maximum), optimising for stability/overall happiness. I, too, want people to be happy, or at least not fall into the trap of easily avoidable suffering.

uptownfunk 4y ago

I have to agree with this now as a parent of a little girl myself and as non-liberal as it sounds. Human values seem to have completely gone down the drain. Bravery, courage, chivalry and respect of elders. That marriage is a commitment and not to be taken lightly, and not to abandon your wife and kids. Almost every day a new Twitter video comes out of dysfunctional children beating up on an elder for taking their toys away while cowardly students sit back and just watch. Meanwhile women are being told that wanting to have kids and be a mother is just not enough or not desirable anymore. How can we think we are a modern society when women are the ones left raising children on their own when their partners leave them, or are the ones forced to “abort” children when they are put in a difficult position. Maybe it is time to look at becoming Amish..

midoridensha 4y ago
>Human values seem to have completely gone down the drain. Bravery, courage, chivalry and respect of elders. So things were better when brave men were happy to march into battle because their feudal lord ordered them to, and they fought to the death with other peasants over some pointless dispute between two warlords?