4 ms·

Its a 150 EUR phone, what more do you expect >

abliefern 4y ago
I expect manufacturers not to offer bad options like a 150 € phone with 3 years of updates. Give me a 200€ phone with 5 years? Or a 10€ service fee per year of updates.
- lucb1e 4y ago
  The problem is: you and ten other persons might genuinely pay for that after three years (also considering the specs of this thing). In silicon valley, I suspect devs can't open up their env for that money and still put food on the table in the evening after paying for their morning outdoor coffee and rent. I'm curious how much work honestly goes into these updates, though. How many patches do they maintain on top of Android that security updates would cause them to need to fix their patches again? Or how many parts of Android are even changed by those updates in a given month? I don't really have any idea of either proportion. How much money would it require us to pool to get one month longer security updates? One year? May be something to ask Fairphone, they seem like the type of business that might be willing to share this for the purpose of pressuring the market to offer the support after a successful crowdfunding campaign.
solarkraft 4y ago
At least 5 years of updates. So much so that I think it should probably be legally mandated and clearly marketed as the device's life span.
- paulmd 4y ago
  Yes, EU needs to step in and deal with the software lifespan problems on Android just as they have with ports and repairability on Apple. It is obvious that this is a market failure leading to negative social outcomes (e-waste) and phone vendors clearly are not going to deal with it on their own. This really should be from date-of-purchase and not date-of-launch as well. Otherwise you're leaving refurbished phones out in the cold too. We should be encouraging refurbishment and not giving those users a worse experience - if anything the law should attempt to favor them, they're doing the thing we want. Requiring bootloader unlock when support ceases is another fantastic idea someone pointed out - and that one will hit Apple too honestly. But if you're not going to support the thing then at least let someone else do it.
  - noisem4ker 4y ago
    Work in progress. "EU wants to enforce 5 years of security and 3 years of OS updates for all phones" https://www.androidauthority.com/eu-smartphone-updates-rules-3205112/ https://www.androidauthority.com/eu-smartphone-updates-rules...
    - paulmd 4y ago
      That actually makes me really happy to hear tbh. Unpopular take but the support story scared me away from android for my second smartphone (and I buy for 5+ years), it just was a real mess with my cheapo Moto G Falcon, say what you want about iOS lockdowns (as a nerd/dev I think there are logical ideas there taken to sometimes-unpopular conclusions around eg app sandboxing, app store root-of-trust freedom vs permissioning social enforceability, etc) but $50 for a battery replacement plus a couple otterbox cases for 5+ years of ownership (with my 8+) has been a very reasonable overall package. I don't mind "bundling" service into the initial purchase if that guarantees it'll be there and I also get a premium phone with walk-in service with first-party repair staff and parts (not at+t store or w/e either) etc. I've shifted to (lower-end/refurb) apple devices for a few things and I know the TCO involved and I find it favorable overall given the expected longevity and service levels and device quality. But there needs to be more than one "gets 5+ years of solid support" option on the market so that shitty point A doesn't lead to a lock-in on shitty point B. At the end of the day competition is what keeps the ecosystems relatively honest and having options if Apple does a dick move is always welcome too.
matheusmoreira 4y ago
I expect lifetime updates. I get that on my real computers: my Linux distribution doesn't suddenly stop updating just because my computer is 3+ years old. Why should phones be any different? You're telling me these trillion dollar corporations can't match the quality of service of Linux distribution maintainers?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- nordsieck 4y ago
  > I expect lifetime updates. I get that on my real computers: my Linux distribution doesn't suddenly stop updating just because my computer is 3+ years old. Why should phones be any different? No other desktop OS works like that. Both Windows and MacOS sunset support for devices. Admittedly - after much, much more time than phone OSes, though. > You're telling me these trillion dollar corporations can't match the quality of service of Linux distribution maintainers? I mean, "quality" means different things. There's a reason the "year of the linux desktop" still hasn't arrived. But yes - volunteers do things that corporations won't.
  - matheusmoreira 4y ago
    > Both Windows and MacOS sunset support for devices Yeah, and they suck too because of it. Truth is there should be no need for them to "support" anything. All they have to do was get their device driver code into the Linux kernel where it belongs. Then everything would work out of the box and the Linux community would support their device for them. If things change, the community will fix their driver for them. If no one does, it's because nobody's using it. But no, they just need to keep making shitty proprietary software instead. As a result I get insanity like "manufacturer applications" that only work in a single version of Windows to control stuff like laptop fans, power profiles and keyboard LEDs. Software so shoddy it takes over a minute to display a window on the screen. I had to reverse engineer that crap and write a Linux version to make my system usable again. I went as far as my skills allowed me to go and the result was free software that will work forever. That's what quality means to me. > "quality" means different things. "Quality" here means shipping software continuously to a diverse set of users and having things not break down just because they'd really enjoy it if we bought their latest flagship phone. I get that on my Linux laptop, why not on a phone? > But yes - volunteers do things that corporations won't. Yes, and these corporations should be profoundly ashamed of themselves that they can't match what a bunch of "volunteers" provide even though they're worth billions. Some professionals. It certainly seems to be the rule rather than the exception with these corporations. The copyright industry literally can't match the quality of the output of a bunch of "pirates" either: while they're streaming to their paying customers some shitty compressed video with artifacts in 95% black frames, "pirates" get blu-ray remuxes in convenient DRM-free formats.

I expect manufacturers not to offer bad options like a 150 € phone with 3 years of updates. Give me a 200€ phone with 5 years? Or a 10€ service fee per year of updates.

lucb1e 4y ago
The problem is: you and ten other persons might genuinely pay for that after three years (also considering the specs of this thing). In silicon valley, I suspect devs can't open up their env for that money and still put food on the table in the evening after paying for their morning outdoor coffee and rent. I'm curious how much work honestly goes into these updates, though. How many patches do they maintain on top of Android that security updates would cause them to need to fix their patches again? Or how many parts of Android are even changed by those updates in a given month? I don't really have any idea of either proportion. How much money would it require us to pool to get one month longer security updates? One year? May be something to ask Fairphone, they seem like the type of business that might be willing to share this for the purpose of pressuring the market to offer the support after a successful crowdfunding campaign.

solarkraft 4y ago

At least 5 years of updates. So much so that I think it should probably be legally mandated and clearly marketed as the device's life span.

paulmd 4y ago
Yes, EU needs to step in and deal with the software lifespan problems on Android just as they have with ports and repairability on Apple. It is obvious that this is a market failure leading to negative social outcomes (e-waste) and phone vendors clearly are not going to deal with it on their own. This really should be from date-of-purchase and not date-of-launch as well. Otherwise you're leaving refurbished phones out in the cold too. We should be encouraging refurbishment and not giving those users a worse experience - if anything the law should attempt to favor them, they're doing the thing we want. Requiring bootloader unlock when support ceases is another fantastic idea someone pointed out - and that one will hit Apple too honestly. But if you're not going to support the thing then at least let someone else do it.
- noisem4ker 4y ago
  Work in progress. "EU wants to enforce 5 years of security and 3 years of OS updates for all phones" https://www.androidauthority.com/eu-smartphone-updates-rules-3205112/ https://www.androidauthority.com/eu-smartphone-updates-rules...
  - paulmd 4y ago
    That actually makes me really happy to hear tbh. Unpopular take but the support story scared me away from android for my second smartphone (and I buy for 5+ years), it just was a real mess with my cheapo Moto G Falcon, say what you want about iOS lockdowns (as a nerd/dev I think there are logical ideas there taken to sometimes-unpopular conclusions around eg app sandboxing, app store root-of-trust freedom vs permissioning social enforceability, etc) but $50 for a battery replacement plus a couple otterbox cases for 5+ years of ownership (with my 8+) has been a very reasonable overall package. I don't mind "bundling" service into the initial purchase if that guarantees it'll be there and I also get a premium phone with walk-in service with first-party repair staff and parts (not at+t store or w/e either) etc. I've shifted to (lower-end/refurb) apple devices for a few things and I know the TCO involved and I find it favorable overall given the expected longevity and service levels and device quality. But there needs to be more than one "gets 5+ years of solid support" option on the market so that shitty point A doesn't lead to a lock-in on shitty point B. At the end of the day competition is what keeps the ecosystems relatively honest and having options if Apple does a dick move is always welcome too.

matheusmoreira 4y ago

I expect lifetime updates. I get that on my real computers: my Linux distribution doesn't suddenly stop updating just because my computer is 3+ years old. Why should phones be any different? You're telling me these trillion dollar corporations can't match the quality of service of Linux distribution maintainers?

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
nordsieck 4y ago
> I expect lifetime updates. I get that on my real computers: my Linux distribution doesn't suddenly stop updating just because my computer is 3+ years old. Why should phones be any different? No other desktop OS works like that. Both Windows and MacOS sunset support for devices. Admittedly - after much, much more time than phone OSes, though. > You're telling me these trillion dollar corporations can't match the quality of service of Linux distribution maintainers? I mean, "quality" means different things. There's a reason the "year of the linux desktop" still hasn't arrived. But yes - volunteers do things that corporations won't.
- matheusmoreira 4y ago
  > Both Windows and MacOS sunset support for devices Yeah, and they suck too because of it. Truth is there should be no need for them to "support" anything. All they have to do was get their device driver code into the Linux kernel where it belongs. Then everything would work out of the box and the Linux community would support their device for them. If things change, the community will fix their driver for them. If no one does, it's because nobody's using it. But no, they just need to keep making shitty proprietary software instead. As a result I get insanity like "manufacturer applications" that only work in a single version of Windows to control stuff like laptop fans, power profiles and keyboard LEDs. Software so shoddy it takes over a minute to display a window on the screen. I had to reverse engineer that crap and write a Linux version to make my system usable again. I went as far as my skills allowed me to go and the result was free software that will work forever. That's what quality means to me. > "quality" means different things. "Quality" here means shipping software continuously to a diverse set of users and having things not break down just because they'd really enjoy it if we bought their latest flagship phone. I get that on my Linux laptop, why not on a phone? > But yes - volunteers do things that corporations won't. Yes, and these corporations should be profoundly ashamed of themselves that they can't match what a bunch of "volunteers" provide even though they're worth billions. Some professionals. It certainly seems to be the rule rather than the exception with these corporations. The copyright industry literally can't match the quality of the output of a bunch of "pirates" either: while they're streaming to their paying customers some shitty compressed video with artifacts in 95% black frames, "pirates" get blu-ray remuxes in convenient DRM-free formats.