8 ms·

It goes both ways in that until recently whites even said a black was less than a person _in the law_, so certainly they deserve to feel slighted by white peopl

It goes both ways in that until recently whites even said a black was less than a person _in the law_, so certainly they deserve to feel slighted by white people insisting racism is over and racial issues need to be considered from a made up position, and we need to do what we can to allow healing to make it right.

benj111 4y ago
how long should this free pass last for? slavery is still a talking point. Should black people get another century and a half after equality is achieved to hold it against white people? Do white people then get another century and a half to hold that against black people? If the goal is equality, holding grudges and special treatment doesn't work. Women got the vote, they didn't get 1.5 votes to make up for past injustices. And I'm not suggesting we have perfect equality now. But if that's the goal, there's no room for revenge.
- freejazz 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - benj111 4y ago
    Embittered about what? The fairest thing for everyone is equality. I'm signed up for that. I don't support equality and a little bit more. If you want special treatment for your group, black, white or anything else, I won't support that, except potentially to further the goal of equality.
    - freejazz 4y ago
      I don't know what you are bitter over, but your word choice clearly reflects what I described. >The fairest thing for everyone is equality. I'm signed up for that. I don't support equality and a little bit more. I mean yeah, that's one way to characterize it. I don't think it's fair to characterize things as 'equality and more' and, to be honest, nothing you've said makes it seem like you are reasonably assessing any of this. >If you want special treatment for your group, black, white or anything else, I won't support that, except potentially to further the goal of equality. Not sure how you square this with the previous statement, but okay.
      - benj111 4y ago
        >nothing you've said makes it seem like you are reasonably assessing any of this. I'm not sure what I'm being unreasonable about? Do you think equality is a bad goal? >Not sure how you square this with the previous statement. What's to square?
        freejazz 4y ago
        I can read past your efforts to try and structure this in a way to distinguish between the "equality" you approve of versus the "equity" you disapprove of, as if they aren't related. It's just a way for you to try and make socially tolerable the things you refuse to say.
        benj111 4y ago
        I don't disapprove of equity, I just don't think it's place is here. My concept of equity would involve giving more help to the poor white person, not the rich black person.
        freejazz 4y ago
        Telling that this is what you go to
        benj111 4y ago
        Telling of what? The fact that I went to money? Black v white? What? You make vague accusations that I'm being inconsistent and struggling to square things and I don't really know what you're referring to. So unless you're going to be more explicit I'm done trying to explain myself further.
        freejazz 4y ago
        I'm not accusing you of being inconsistent at all. I'm pointing out you are consistent. Consistent in coming up with characterizations that reflect foremost, your own personal grievances, in a way that contradicts reality.
- ModernMech 4y ago
  > slavery is still a talking point. Should black people get another century and a half The last people born into US slavery died in the 70s. The 1970s. This stuff isn't ancient history, and treating it as such is part of the problem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_last_survivors_of_American_slavery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_last_survivors_of_Amer...
  - benj111 4y ago
    I'm not saying it ancient history. I'm saying there's no one alive today that experienced it. If you want to change the 150 year cycle with a 50 year cycle go for it. The cycle still exists.
    - ModernMech 4y ago
      > I'm saying there's no one alive today that experienced it. But that doesn't mean the effects aren't still experienced by their children and grand children, who are still living. In order to say it's ancient history, we have to actually grapple with that history. Another poster made a great point that the reason we don't closely associate Germany with Nazi Germany today is that they went thorough a lot of hard work to de-Nazify their country. In America, we dismantled our apartheid state and called it a day. We went from slavery, straight into a segregated society, and then when the civil rights act was passed, racism was declared "over" by a segment of society who didn't want to fully deal with the issue. But the negative effects from 200+ years of stat-sanctioned oppression persist. Imagine if Germany post WWII said "You know, the holocaust was too far, but Jews are still a problem, and they shouldn't be part of German society." We'd question how de-Nazified Germany actually was. Jews there would be correct to question whether the holocaust actually ended or if it just temporarily subsided. They would be right to be concerned when people started saying "It's OK to be Aryan", and they probably won't agree with that sentiment even if having blue eyes and blonde hair is literally just fine. Because we all know what people uttering such a phrase are really saying: "It's okay to be a Nazi". Take the context back to America, and we haven't dealt with slavery or our history of racial segregation. Just as we start to deal with it in our modern area, we see at the local, state, and federal level, the same ideology that was for US apartheid is now very much against a societal level reconciliation at the scale Germany underwent. And those are the people like Scott Adams, who want us to retreat back to our segregated past. They are the same as the Nazis want to put the Jews back in the ghettos without going full holocaust, and call that social progress. It's the same thing with these American white supremacists.
- PuppyTailWags 4y ago
  I would argue this "free pass" should last for until we no longer have living memory of racial discrimination. There are people still alive who couldn't vote because they are black. The Vice President of the united states had to be given armed guards in order to go to school because she was black and Indian. We're acting like black people are holding against white people something that no one currently alive can attest to. In actuality, racial discrimination and racist harm has occurred to people who are alive right now, and I highly doubt that white people get just proclaim "it's over, we solved racism" and therefore no one should retain any hurt feelings for the racist acts against them. You know, I used to have a girlfriend that would do shitty things to me and then proclaim I was the one that needed to get over it because it happened so long ago, despite her never apologizing or making up for her behavior.
  - benj111 4y ago
    >You know, I used to have a girlfriend that would do shitty things to me and then proclaim I was the one that needed to get over it because it happened so long ago, despite her never apologizing or making up for her behavior. You seem to be suggesting that you hold all women responsible for what your girlfriend did. Do you see how other women might object to apologising for what your ex did, based purely of what they have in their underwear?
    - silverwasthere 4y ago
      It was an example of an abuse not an example of an abusive class of people. What a large group of people are doing now regarding racism is exactly what this one single woman is said to have done.
      - benj111 4y ago
        Am I part of this abusive class of people simply for being white? How many of these 'single' women are there? How many before it becomes a class, and all women are culpable?
        4y ago

benj111 4y ago

how long should this free pass last for? slavery is still a talking point. Should black people get another century and a half after equality is achieved to hold it against white people? Do white people then get another century and a half to hold that against black people? If the goal is equality, holding grudges and special treatment doesn't work. Women got the vote, they didn't get 1.5 votes to make up for past injustices. And I'm not suggesting we have perfect equality now. But if that's the goal, there's no room for revenge.

freejazz 4y ago
[flagged]
- benj111 4y ago
  Embittered about what? The fairest thing for everyone is equality. I'm signed up for that. I don't support equality and a little bit more. If you want special treatment for your group, black, white or anything else, I won't support that, except potentially to further the goal of equality.
  - freejazz 4y ago
    I don't know what you are bitter over, but your word choice clearly reflects what I described. >The fairest thing for everyone is equality. I'm signed up for that. I don't support equality and a little bit more. I mean yeah, that's one way to characterize it. I don't think it's fair to characterize things as 'equality and more' and, to be honest, nothing you've said makes it seem like you are reasonably assessing any of this. >If you want special treatment for your group, black, white or anything else, I won't support that, except potentially to further the goal of equality. Not sure how you square this with the previous statement, but okay.
    - benj111 4y ago
      >nothing you've said makes it seem like you are reasonably assessing any of this. I'm not sure what I'm being unreasonable about? Do you think equality is a bad goal? >Not sure how you square this with the previous statement. What's to square?
      - freejazz 4y ago
        I can read past your efforts to try and structure this in a way to distinguish between the "equality" you approve of versus the "equity" you disapprove of, as if they aren't related. It's just a way for you to try and make socially tolerable the things you refuse to say.
        benj111 4y ago
        I don't disapprove of equity, I just don't think it's place is here. My concept of equity would involve giving more help to the poor white person, not the rich black person.
        freejazz 4y ago
        Telling that this is what you go to
        benj111 4y ago
        Telling of what? The fact that I went to money? Black v white? What? You make vague accusations that I'm being inconsistent and struggling to square things and I don't really know what you're referring to. So unless you're going to be more explicit I'm done trying to explain myself further.
        freejazz 4y ago
        I'm not accusing you of being inconsistent at all. I'm pointing out you are consistent. Consistent in coming up with characterizations that reflect foremost, your own personal grievances, in a way that contradicts reality.
ModernMech 4y ago
> slavery is still a talking point. Should black people get another century and a half The last people born into US slavery died in the 70s. The 1970s. This stuff isn't ancient history, and treating it as such is part of the problem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_last_survivors_of_American_slavery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_last_survivors_of_Amer...
- benj111 4y ago
  I'm not saying it ancient history. I'm saying there's no one alive today that experienced it. If you want to change the 150 year cycle with a 50 year cycle go for it. The cycle still exists.
  - ModernMech 4y ago
    > I'm saying there's no one alive today that experienced it. But that doesn't mean the effects aren't still experienced by their children and grand children, who are still living. In order to say it's ancient history, we have to actually grapple with that history. Another poster made a great point that the reason we don't closely associate Germany with Nazi Germany today is that they went thorough a lot of hard work to de-Nazify their country. In America, we dismantled our apartheid state and called it a day. We went from slavery, straight into a segregated society, and then when the civil rights act was passed, racism was declared "over" by a segment of society who didn't want to fully deal with the issue. But the negative effects from 200+ years of stat-sanctioned oppression persist. Imagine if Germany post WWII said "You know, the holocaust was too far, but Jews are still a problem, and they shouldn't be part of German society." We'd question how de-Nazified Germany actually was. Jews there would be correct to question whether the holocaust actually ended or if it just temporarily subsided. They would be right to be concerned when people started saying "It's OK to be Aryan", and they probably won't agree with that sentiment even if having blue eyes and blonde hair is literally just fine. Because we all know what people uttering such a phrase are really saying: "It's okay to be a Nazi". Take the context back to America, and we haven't dealt with slavery or our history of racial segregation. Just as we start to deal with it in our modern area, we see at the local, state, and federal level, the same ideology that was for US apartheid is now very much against a societal level reconciliation at the scale Germany underwent. And those are the people like Scott Adams, who want us to retreat back to our segregated past. They are the same as the Nazis want to put the Jews back in the ghettos without going full holocaust, and call that social progress. It's the same thing with these American white supremacists.
PuppyTailWags 4y ago
I would argue this "free pass" should last for until we no longer have living memory of racial discrimination. There are people still alive who couldn't vote because they are black. The Vice President of the united states had to be given armed guards in order to go to school because she was black and Indian. We're acting like black people are holding against white people something that no one currently alive can attest to. In actuality, racial discrimination and racist harm has occurred to people who are alive right now, and I highly doubt that white people get just proclaim "it's over, we solved racism" and therefore no one should retain any hurt feelings for the racist acts against them. You know, I used to have a girlfriend that would do shitty things to me and then proclaim I was the one that needed to get over it because it happened so long ago, despite her never apologizing or making up for her behavior.
- benj111 4y ago
  >You know, I used to have a girlfriend that would do shitty things to me and then proclaim I was the one that needed to get over it because it happened so long ago, despite her never apologizing or making up for her behavior. You seem to be suggesting that you hold all women responsible for what your girlfriend did. Do you see how other women might object to apologising for what your ex did, based purely of what they have in their underwear?
  - silverwasthere 4y ago
    It was an example of an abuse not an example of an abusive class of people. What a large group of people are doing now regarding racism is exactly what this one single woman is said to have done.
    - benj111 4y ago
      Am I part of this abusive class of people simply for being white? How many of these 'single' women are there? How many before it becomes a class, and all women are culpable?
      - 4y ago