5 ms·

Welcome to HN where we provide support after large corporations fail to do basic due diligence.

jb1991 4y ago
A moderator replied to me a couple months ago that these kinds of posts are usually penalized so HN doesn’t become a support site, but I still see them quite often on here on the front page. I had been commenting that when such posts are made for YC companies, they rarely make it to the front page. > there has been a glut lately of stories using HN as customer-support-of-last-resort or generic-complaints-about-$company, and we've been hearing an increasing amount of community complaints and pushback about those. HN's standard mod practice is to downweight most such threads I’m guessing that Upwork is not a YC company. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34320816 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34320816
- dang 4y ago
  It actually works in the opposite direction: we moderate HN threads less, not more, when YC startups are the story. Lots of past explanation: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20moderate%20%22less%2C%20not%20more%22&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu.... That said, customer-support-of-last-resort threads have been so repetitive lately that we started downweighting them more in general. I was going to link to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34320816 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34320816 and then I saw that it was the reply I posted to you last time! Nothing has changed since then.
  - infofarmer 4y ago
    Any chance for a dedicated section?
    - dang 4y ago
      Do you mean would we add a dedicated section on HN for 3rd party customer support issues? That's a legit question. This is when it's particularly helpful to have only one thing we're optimizing for [1] because it means we can replace that question with another: would it make HN more intellectually interesting? The answer is clearly no, I think, because those threads tend to be so repetitive. [1] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=curiosity%20optimiz%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...
      - BartBoch 4y ago
        Knowing which company, that your live depends on, know how to make things right is crucial knowledge - thus the popularity of those threads IMO. When years of your life gets deleted in seconds, and the company starts ignoring you, that's the red flag that needs to be public. I'm not advocating for separate section, but the public have spoken - the popularity of those threads means it's crucial part of this community.
        dang 4y ago
        That's not how HN works. If it did, then the front page would be filled with sensationalism and rage and the same few hot topics repeated over and over—because those tend to get the most upvotes. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=%22upvotes%20alone%22%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...
- MattGaiser 4y ago
  It is also the middle of the night where HN mods usually live (USA).
  - joshmn 4y ago
    Good morning dang! Happy Saturday. :(
  - jb1991 4y ago
    I guess he woke up because this quickly dropped to the fifth page!
- zamnos 4y ago
  Maybe for smaller YC companies, but this story on Stripe got 1624 points, which meant it was probably on the frontpage for multiple days, and inside they say they only brought it up because someone else mentioned having a problem. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32854528 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32854528
  - jb1991 4y ago
    The number of upvotes is not a reflection of whether or not it was on the front page, but maybe that one was. But the post linked above (about Airbnb) had received a couple hundred of votes in less than one hour, but was not on the front page due to moderation (confirmed by the moderator), while most posts with that level of votes in such a short time would be very near the top of the front page.
- jrumbut 4y ago
  Personally, I see it as a benefit to be part of a community that can help in these situations. I'm willing to have to scroll past one person's headache in the hope that if I suddenly lose my XYZ account I will be able to get redress through the same avenue.
  - jareklupinski 4y ago
    yup, if there was going to be one place to do this, HN would be a good one maybe a Help HN! subsection could be created? where people who work for the companies users need support from could gain +25 karma for helping out, or something
  - TylerLives 4y ago
    I think the fear is that you'll see a lot more of them in the future if they're allowed.
    - dsr_ 4y ago
      The hope (generally unjustified) is that corporations will feel shame about their practices, or perhaps more realistically that people will decide not to use their services or work for them.
  - roundandround 4y ago
    Without these there's also not as much to counter survivor bias in the stories/recipes of successful use of rental economy, freemium services, etc.
  - ddtaylor 4y ago
    > Personally, I see it as a benefit to be part of a community that can help in these situations. The problem is that instead of actually solving the issue we are normalizing the idea that if you're in XYZ group you'll get proper treatment while everyone else gets screwed. If you're on YouTube and have a massive audience or are friends with someone that has a major audience you may be spared the wrath of a rogue AI that decides you're violating some community guidelines. If you're on Twitter and happen to have followed the magical sequence of fellow accounts you'll be allowed to keep your PayPal account after making enough ruckus. If you're on HackerNews and get lucky at 4 AM on a Saturday night before the mods wake up you'll be allowed to keep your $10,000 in earnings. I don't like the idea that unless I'm cliqued up on YouTube, Twitter and HackerNews I "deserve" to get screwed.
- dang 4y ago
  We moderate less, not more, when YC or a YC-related startup is the story: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20moderate%20%22less%2C%20not%20more%22&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu....
tgv 4y ago
It also serves as a warning for others, and not just Upwork. Think and check before committing sizeable resources.
is_true 4y ago
Keeping us humble
_tk_ 4y ago
I'm interested in this post and others like it, not because of one person's story, but because it tells me something about a company's way to handle customer support, fraud detection and prevention and more.
- ddtaylor 4y ago
  > but because it tells me something about a company's way to handle customer support, fraud detection and prevention and more. I agree as long as that takes into account the fact that their system failed enough to warrant needing to go to HN in the first place. All too often we see something like this blow up on HN, get "resolved" and then the takeaway is "oh, I guess XYZ company really handles stuff" when in reality there are probably hundreds or thousands of other cases that weren't fortunate to get to the front page of HN to bubble up out of the AI support hell.
  - _tk_ 4y ago
    Sure, but how can you be sure that the takeaway is a „good“ one now? Maybe the author of this thread was ill intended, left out important details etc. Stories like these are really hard to assess without some more research. When I say it tells me something, I mean I get a first impression. I do not get a significant amount of information to have a settled opinion.

jb1991 4y ago

A moderator replied to me a couple months ago that these kinds of posts are usually penalized so HN doesn’t become a support site, but I still see them quite often on here on the front page. I had been commenting that when such posts are made for YC companies, they rarely make it to the front page. > there has been a glut lately of stories using HN as customer-support-of-last-resort or generic-complaints-about-$company, and we've been hearing an increasing amount of community complaints and pushback about those. HN's standard mod practice is to downweight most such threads I’m guessing that Upwork is not a YC company. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34320816 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34320816

dang 4y ago
It actually works in the opposite direction: we moderate HN threads less, not more, when YC startups are the story. Lots of past explanation: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20moderate%20%22less%2C%20not%20more%22&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu.... That said, customer-support-of-last-resort threads have been so repetitive lately that we started downweighting them more in general. I was going to link to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34320816 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34320816 and then I saw that it was the reply I posted to you last time! Nothing has changed since then.
- infofarmer 4y ago
  Any chance for a dedicated section?
  - dang 4y ago
    Do you mean would we add a dedicated section on HN for 3rd party customer support issues? That's a legit question. This is when it's particularly helpful to have only one thing we're optimizing for [1] because it means we can replace that question with another: would it make HN more intellectually interesting? The answer is clearly no, I think, because those threads tend to be so repetitive. [1] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=curiosity%20optimiz%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...
    - BartBoch 4y ago
      Knowing which company, that your live depends on, know how to make things right is crucial knowledge - thus the popularity of those threads IMO. When years of your life gets deleted in seconds, and the company starts ignoring you, that's the red flag that needs to be public. I'm not advocating for separate section, but the public have spoken - the popularity of those threads means it's crucial part of this community.
      - dang 4y ago
        That's not how HN works. If it did, then the front page would be filled with sensationalism and rage and the same few hot topics repeated over and over—because those tend to get the most upvotes. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=%22upvotes%20alone%22%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...
MattGaiser 4y ago
It is also the middle of the night where HN mods usually live (USA).
- joshmn 4y ago
  Good morning dang! Happy Saturday. :(
- jb1991 4y ago
  I guess he woke up because this quickly dropped to the fifth page!
zamnos 4y ago
Maybe for smaller YC companies, but this story on Stripe got 1624 points, which meant it was probably on the frontpage for multiple days, and inside they say they only brought it up because someone else mentioned having a problem. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32854528 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32854528
- jb1991 4y ago
  The number of upvotes is not a reflection of whether or not it was on the front page, but maybe that one was. But the post linked above (about Airbnb) had received a couple hundred of votes in less than one hour, but was not on the front page due to moderation (confirmed by the moderator), while most posts with that level of votes in such a short time would be very near the top of the front page.
jrumbut 4y ago
Personally, I see it as a benefit to be part of a community that can help in these situations. I'm willing to have to scroll past one person's headache in the hope that if I suddenly lose my XYZ account I will be able to get redress through the same avenue.
- jareklupinski 4y ago
  yup, if there was going to be one place to do this, HN would be a good one maybe a Help HN! subsection could be created? where people who work for the companies users need support from could gain +25 karma for helping out, or something
- TylerLives 4y ago
  I think the fear is that you'll see a lot more of them in the future if they're allowed.
  - dsr_ 4y ago
    The hope (generally unjustified) is that corporations will feel shame about their practices, or perhaps more realistically that people will decide not to use their services or work for them.
- roundandround 4y ago
  Without these there's also not as much to counter survivor bias in the stories/recipes of successful use of rental economy, freemium services, etc.
- ddtaylor 4y ago
  > Personally, I see it as a benefit to be part of a community that can help in these situations. The problem is that instead of actually solving the issue we are normalizing the idea that if you're in XYZ group you'll get proper treatment while everyone else gets screwed. If you're on YouTube and have a massive audience or are friends with someone that has a major audience you may be spared the wrath of a rogue AI that decides you're violating some community guidelines. If you're on Twitter and happen to have followed the magical sequence of fellow accounts you'll be allowed to keep your PayPal account after making enough ruckus. If you're on HackerNews and get lucky at 4 AM on a Saturday night before the mods wake up you'll be allowed to keep your $10,000 in earnings. I don't like the idea that unless I'm cliqued up on YouTube, Twitter and HackerNews I "deserve" to get screwed.
dang 4y ago
We moderate less, not more, when YC or a YC-related startup is the story: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20moderate%20%22less%2C%20not%20more%22&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu....

tgv 4y ago

It also serves as a warning for others, and not just Upwork. Think and check before committing sizeable resources.

is_true 4y ago

Keeping us humble

_tk_ 4y ago

I'm interested in this post and others like it, not because of one person's story, but because it tells me something about a company's way to handle customer support, fraud detection and prevention and more.

ddtaylor 4y ago
> but because it tells me something about a company's way to handle customer support, fraud detection and prevention and more. I agree as long as that takes into account the fact that their system failed enough to warrant needing to go to HN in the first place. All too often we see something like this blow up on HN, get "resolved" and then the takeaway is "oh, I guess XYZ company really handles stuff" when in reality there are probably hundreds or thousands of other cases that weren't fortunate to get to the front page of HN to bubble up out of the AI support hell.
- _tk_ 4y ago
  Sure, but how can you be sure that the takeaway is a „good“ one now? Maybe the author of this thread was ill intended, left out important details etc. Stories like these are really hard to assess without some more research. When I say it tells me something, I mean I get a first impression. I do not get a significant amount of information to have a settled opinion.