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The article mentions viewing driving as an expression of freedom. What really ticks me off with that is that it's based in denying freedom to everyone else. As

The article mentions viewing driving as an expression of freedom. What really ticks me off with that is that it's based in denying freedom to everyone else. As a pedestrian or cyclist you have to make a lot of concessions because laws, either human or of the jungle dictate it. The worst part is, all of that is because of cars. Without notorized vehicles we would literally not need the overwhelming majority of traffic rules, signs and regulations.

warning26 4y ago
> expression of freedom [...] based in denying freedom to everyone else You've just summed up the entire American ethos, sadly.
- tablespoon 4y ago
  >> expression of freedom[...]based in denying freedom to everyone else > You've just summed up the entire American ethos, sadly. That summation is just tendentious framing of the concept of tradeoffs. If the situation were changed so "pedestrian[s] or cyclist[s]" don't have to make "concessions" to cars, that could also be framed as and "expression of freedom[...]based in denying freedom to everyone else." And that framing would be less tendentious than the OP's, because in America the pedestrians and cyclists are a vocal minority.
  - xhkkffbf 4y ago
    Cyclists especially have a superiority complex. I always get voted down here when I point out that between precipitation, the winter darkness, the cold and age, there aren't many days when very many people can commute by bike. Oh, sure, there are a few great spring days. And there are some strong, hearty folks in their 20s who can cycle through the winter, but for the most part, it's not very practical for many people on many days. Now electric scooters and eBikes will change the equation a bit, but there are plenty of purists who hate on them too. They seem to feel they're sort of like lite versions of cars.
    - eldaisfish 4y ago
      Literally none of the issues you mention are detriments to commuting safely by bicycle. None. The fact that you got downvoted should perhaps give you pause for reflection. A more reasonable criticism is the danger to bikes from neeedlessly massive cars and pickup trucks. Or the danger from bike lanes that are not cleared of snow.
      - Spooky23 4y ago
        That’s a very one dimensional view. I love my bike, but riding in the winter is a miserable experience that I would avoid if any alternative existed. It’s not even a safety issue, it’s simply uncomfortable and expensive to get outfitted with appropriate gear. Not everyone lives in San Diego. That doesn’t mean that robust bicycle infrastructure shouldn’t exist.
        svpk 4y ago
        I do bike regularly in winter in a fairly cold city (it was -8 C today) and would disagree with this. The only gear I’ve bought specifically for winter cycling as opposed to the rest of the year are glasses and a headband. I’d probably recommend a balaclava for someone without a beard. I bought fancy biking glasses, but $5 safety glasses would be passable. Other than that I just wear the clothes fit for wherever I’m going. (Ie jeans, maybe long underwear, a couple layers, and a puffy coat). The comfort part is subjective and I can’t invalidate your experience of course, but I personally find it at worst comparable to the first five to ten minutes of being in a car on a cold day before the car warms up. And on anything but the coldest days I often find I’m a quite comfortable temperature. Though it’s possible to over/under dress and then be hot or cold during the commute. Not that people can’t drive in the winter if they want, but it often feels where I am that people just can’t conceive of the idea that biking in winter is a thing anyone would do. But there’s plenty of evidence that some percentage of people will choose to bike in winter if it’s viable (ie there’s good bike infrastructure).
        LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago
- blooalien 4y ago
  We weren't all raised so badly; Many places here not that long ago, good manners and basic respect were important lessons to learn early in life, but that all seems to have gone away in more recent years. :(
throwanem 4y ago
Without motorized vehicles we would also lose a lot of the degrees of freedom that make modern life as comfortable as it is. No one is going back to delivering stock to city stores via horse and carriage - and you might not like it if they did, seeing as horses produce emissions of their own that aren't especially pleasant to scrape off a shoe or have sprayed up off the road by a bike tire. Now, the idea of constraining motor vehicles, that I'm all in favor of, as a sometime cyclist and pedestrian who hates needing to own a car at all. Carless CBDs. Streets bollarded off. Time-of-day restrictions. Mass transit that actually works - yes, yes, yes, and please-for-the-love-of-God. Argue that motor vehicles should serve where they suit best and not be allowed to pose a hazard otherwise. Don't argue that motor vehicles should cease to exist entirely - they won't, but your audience will.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  > Don't argue that motor vehicles should cease to exist entirely - they won't, but your audience will. The argument is against individual motor vehicles at current sizes, because they are simply incompatible with this goal: > Mass transit that actually works - yes, yes, yes, and please-for-the-love-of-God. You simply cannot design an environment to where everyone can have their own F150 and still have things be within walking/cycling distance and still have public transit operating at sufficient frequency to make it “work”.
  - throwanem 4y ago
    I don't believe I suggested otherwise. My point is that if that's the argument, as I agree it should be, then make that argument - make that argument, with clarity and precision. You're already well outside the received precepts of the culture you seek to improve, which means you are necessarily beginning under a cloud of suspicion and doubt. Take it from a gay man old enough to remember the 80s: You help yourself not at all by doing anything to further complicate your delivery of the message.
thrownawaydad 4y ago
> What really ticks me off with that is that it's based in denying freedom to everyone else. Next time you're bicycling down the sidewalk, remember that this is how pedestrians feel about _you_.
- 6LLvveMx2koXfwn 4y ago
  yeah, but what about . . .
- atyppo 4y ago
  Perhaps cyclists riding on the sidewalk is a sign that bike infrastructure doesn’t exist where it should?
  - version_five 4y ago
    Or that they're a jerk? Can I drive my car on the sidewalk if the road isn't meeting my needs? It's exactly this self centric view that makes so many people not like cyclists.
    - crote 4y ago
      That's exactly what is happening, though. See [0] for example, many drivers treat cycle lanes as a parking zone. And cars driving down dedicated bike lanes because they feel like it aren't exactly hard to find either.[1] [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzE-IMaegzQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzE-IMaegzQ [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXzObryNvxk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXzObryNvxk
      - thrownawaydad 4y ago
        Your second link is not an example of purposeful bad driving. It's an example of terrible design. And more generally, a demonstration of how well-intended bicycle infrastructure can actually make things _more_ dangerous for bicyclists. I've ridden thousands of miles, and the only bit of infrastructure that ever helped was wide shoulders, preferably with a bright white line demarcating.

warning26 4y ago

> expression of freedom [...] based in denying freedom to everyone else You've just summed up the entire American ethos, sadly.

tablespoon 4y ago
>> expression of freedom[...]based in denying freedom to everyone else > You've just summed up the entire American ethos, sadly. That summation is just tendentious framing of the concept of tradeoffs. If the situation were changed so "pedestrian[s] or cyclist[s]" don't have to make "concessions" to cars, that could also be framed as and "expression of freedom[...]based in denying freedom to everyone else." And that framing would be less tendentious than the OP's, because in America the pedestrians and cyclists are a vocal minority.
- xhkkffbf 4y ago
  Cyclists especially have a superiority complex. I always get voted down here when I point out that between precipitation, the winter darkness, the cold and age, there aren't many days when very many people can commute by bike. Oh, sure, there are a few great spring days. And there are some strong, hearty folks in their 20s who can cycle through the winter, but for the most part, it's not very practical for many people on many days. Now electric scooters and eBikes will change the equation a bit, but there are plenty of purists who hate on them too. They seem to feel they're sort of like lite versions of cars.
  - eldaisfish 4y ago
    Literally none of the issues you mention are detriments to commuting safely by bicycle. None. The fact that you got downvoted should perhaps give you pause for reflection. A more reasonable criticism is the danger to bikes from neeedlessly massive cars and pickup trucks. Or the danger from bike lanes that are not cleared of snow.
    - Spooky23 4y ago
      That’s a very one dimensional view. I love my bike, but riding in the winter is a miserable experience that I would avoid if any alternative existed. It’s not even a safety issue, it’s simply uncomfortable and expensive to get outfitted with appropriate gear. Not everyone lives in San Diego. That doesn’t mean that robust bicycle infrastructure shouldn’t exist.
      - svpk 4y ago
        I do bike regularly in winter in a fairly cold city (it was -8 C today) and would disagree with this. The only gear I’ve bought specifically for winter cycling as opposed to the rest of the year are glasses and a headband. I’d probably recommend a balaclava for someone without a beard. I bought fancy biking glasses, but $5 safety glasses would be passable. Other than that I just wear the clothes fit for wherever I’m going. (Ie jeans, maybe long underwear, a couple layers, and a puffy coat). The comfort part is subjective and I can’t invalidate your experience of course, but I personally find it at worst comparable to the first five to ten minutes of being in a car on a cold day before the car warms up. And on anything but the coldest days I often find I’m a quite comfortable temperature. Though it’s possible to over/under dress and then be hot or cold during the commute. Not that people can’t drive in the winter if they want, but it often feels where I am that people just can’t conceive of the idea that biking in winter is a thing anyone would do. But there’s plenty of evidence that some percentage of people will choose to bike in winter if it’s viable (ie there’s good bike infrastructure).
        LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago
blooalien 4y ago
We weren't all raised so badly; Many places here not that long ago, good manners and basic respect were important lessons to learn early in life, but that all seems to have gone away in more recent years. :(

throwanem 4y ago

Without motorized vehicles we would also lose a lot of the degrees of freedom that make modern life as comfortable as it is. No one is going back to delivering stock to city stores via horse and carriage - and you might not like it if they did, seeing as horses produce emissions of their own that aren't especially pleasant to scrape off a shoe or have sprayed up off the road by a bike tire. Now, the idea of constraining motor vehicles, that I'm all in favor of, as a sometime cyclist and pedestrian who hates needing to own a car at all. Carless CBDs. Streets bollarded off. Time-of-day restrictions. Mass transit that actually works - yes, yes, yes, and please-for-the-love-of-God. Argue that motor vehicles should serve where they suit best and not be allowed to pose a hazard otherwise. Don't argue that motor vehicles should cease to exist entirely - they won't, but your audience will.

lotsofpulp 4y ago
> Don't argue that motor vehicles should cease to exist entirely - they won't, but your audience will. The argument is against individual motor vehicles at current sizes, because they are simply incompatible with this goal: > Mass transit that actually works - yes, yes, yes, and please-for-the-love-of-God. You simply cannot design an environment to where everyone can have their own F150 and still have things be within walking/cycling distance and still have public transit operating at sufficient frequency to make it “work”.
- throwanem 4y ago
  I don't believe I suggested otherwise. My point is that if that's the argument, as I agree it should be, then make that argument - make that argument, with clarity and precision. You're already well outside the received precepts of the culture you seek to improve, which means you are necessarily beginning under a cloud of suspicion and doubt. Take it from a gay man old enough to remember the 80s: You help yourself not at all by doing anything to further complicate your delivery of the message.

thrownawaydad 4y ago

> What really ticks me off with that is that it's based in denying freedom to everyone else. Next time you're bicycling down the sidewalk, remember that this is how pedestrians feel about _you_.

6LLvveMx2koXfwn 4y ago
yeah, but what about . . .
atyppo 4y ago
Perhaps cyclists riding on the sidewalk is a sign that bike infrastructure doesn’t exist where it should?
- version_five 4y ago
  Or that they're a jerk? Can I drive my car on the sidewalk if the road isn't meeting my needs? It's exactly this self centric view that makes so many people not like cyclists.
  - crote 4y ago
    That's exactly what is happening, though. See [0] for example, many drivers treat cycle lanes as a parking zone. And cars driving down dedicated bike lanes because they feel like it aren't exactly hard to find either.[1] [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzE-IMaegzQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzE-IMaegzQ [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXzObryNvxk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXzObryNvxk
    - thrownawaydad 4y ago
      Your second link is not an example of purposeful bad driving. It's an example of terrible design. And more generally, a demonstration of how well-intended bicycle infrastructure can actually make things _more_ dangerous for bicyclists. I've ridden thousands of miles, and the only bit of infrastructure that ever helped was wide shoulders, preferably with a bright white line demarcating.