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I was born into a vegetarian family. I still am a vegetarian, but I accept that one species eats another in this world and that is how nature has evolved. What

I was born into a vegetarian family. I still am a vegetarian, but I accept that one species eats another in this world and that is how nature has evolved. What has stopped me from ever eating meat was this: if we encountered an alien race which slaughtered and consumed humans the way humans consume other animals, how would I feel? The answer was always that I would feel disgusted/horrified/angry. Shouldn't we all feel the same about another sentient species? We could argue forever about what 'sentience' means, but beyond a certain point it just feels callous to not stop.

rendall 4y ago
> Shouldn't we all feel the same about another sentient species? It really depends on how they taste.
- ben_w 4y ago
  Tastes are our evolved response to support us in an environment we no longer occupy. This is also why ice cream and candy manages to be bad for us (in the quantities we consume) despite tasting delicious. Note that morality isn't part of evolution's calculus any more than it would be for leopards eating your face.
  - marcusverus 4y ago
    > Tastes are our evolved response to support us in an environment we no longer occupy. The same can be said for all human pleasures. Do you disdain them all?
    - ben_w 4y ago
      Incorrect; many human pleasures revolve around other humans, and those are (in all important regards) as much a part of our environment today as 100kya. For the rest, I distain only those which violate my sense of empathy, which asks "would I be OK if the tables were turned?": that we enjoy games of skill involving throwing things is seldom important but morally neutral, that we act as though calories is scarce is bad on a personal level but again not a moral concern (I don't think hunger is generally caused by others overeating).
RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago
What are your thoughts about bears eating elk? Unlike some other predators bears are actually omnivores, and could eat other foods. If we encountered an alien race that hunted and ate humans like bears eat elk, we would also be disgusted.
- melagonster 4y ago
  we just try to kill them. look how human treat other human>
- hnthrowaway3 4y ago
  Bears eating elk seems okay to me, partly because it seems like they are born that way and they haven't evolved beyond their basic instinct to eat and survive. It seems that as human beings, we have a higher order skill named empathy. We feel pain and suffering and are able to relate to the pain and suffering of others - even if they are animals. Once this evolution has happened, is it still right to continue inflicting pain and suffering for ones own benefit?
- anigbrowl 4y ago
  we would also be disgusted Would we? the Predator film franchise is popular because the alien visitor is an obvious dark reflection of ourselves. Ridley Scott's Alien franchise is considered more horror than action because the creature is parasitical and asocial. (Incidentally you should check out his TV shows Raised by Wolves for yet another perspective.)
tjbiddle 4y ago
I've personally always held the opposite belief. If another species is sentient enough to kill & eat me, then so be it - that's life. If I walk into the jungle and a tiger devours me, well - I lost. If aliens come down and decide that's how they want to treat us - well, shit. I'm going to learn how to evade or befriend them.
- hnthrowaway3 4y ago
  Yes, but if say tigers (or any other species) started "farming" humans and slaughtering them well before the end of their natural life span, would you still be ok with it?
- HarHarVeryFunny 4y ago
  Well, sure, if you were a wild human. But what if you were one raised on the alien's human factory farm. Maybe they had a taste for human babies (like humans do for cow babies), or human fois gras ... But I guess there's not much you could do other than stoic acceptance.
  - qup 4y ago
    I'll take it over no existence, if I'm a human. (I'll probably pass on being a chicken on an industrial farm, thanks) I'm a wild human no matter where you put me. Anything can happen.
Tangurena2 4y ago
A reasonably common theme in SF stories is that after we encounter some other intelligent, star-faring, race, that both races find each other delicious. After reading about intelligence and feelings in other animals, I find myself eating less meat. Even fish & insects have been shown to experience pain.
- zabzonk 4y ago
  for example, "from gustible's planet" by cordwainer smith https://gutenberg.ca/ebooks/smithcordwainer-fromgustiblesplanet/smithcordwainer-fromgustiblesplanet-00-h.html https://gutenberg.ca/ebooks/smithcordwainer-fromgustiblespla...
marcusverus 4y ago
> I would feel disgusted/horrified/angry. This is the appropriate response to the thought of your species being slaughtered for food. Happily, there's no reason to assume that any other species is capable of contemplating such a thing! They are capable of feeling pain, of course, which is a good argument against eating veal or foie gras. But it's hardly a reason to not eat any meat. If you're eating free range chickens or pasture-raised beef, it's likely that the animal you're eating lived a pretty good life and had one bad day.
- rmvt 4y ago
  > This is the appropriate response to the thought of your species being slaughtered for food not necessarily. there are a lot of assumptions you're making here > there's no reason to assume that any other species is capable of contemplating such a thing! you don't know this > If you're eating free range chickens or pasture-raised beef in case that by "free range chicken" and "pasture-raised beef" you mean the same that the indurstry does by using those terms, you should do some research into how those animals are actually raised and the lives they live
- ethanbond 4y ago
  There’s plenty reason to suspect other animals are capable of this experience. We know for example that elephants will mourn their dead. Spend any time with a dog and you’ll realize they too are clearly affected when their loved ones are gone. As far as I’m aware, the overall trend is that as we learn more and more about animals, they consistently have richer and more complex lives than we thought they had previously. “Non-human animals can’t experience complex emotion” is the bold claim that relies on unproven exceptionalism. That is the claim we have no evidence for.
linuxftw 4y ago
While people aren't eaten today (mostly), it doesn't mean they're not consumed. They're conscripted and forced to die in trenches. Many live menial laborious lives so the few can live in opulence. In simpler times, at least we could identify our rules. The Indians could easily identify the white British as their exploiters. Today we have an amalgamation of international corporations, billionaires, royalty, and dictators (did I repeat myself?) exploiting us.
rqtwteye 4y ago
My main objection to meat eating is the way we raise animals for meat, especially on an industrial scale. These animals are suffering immensely throughout their whole lives. I find it difficult to reconcile thinking of ourselves as ethical while we support these practices. I have less of a problem with people hunting for food. The animals can live their normal lives and one day it's over, either because of a mountain lion or a human. That's the way nature works. Of course there is the problem that there are too many humans and they would quickly kill all wild animals.
- hnthrowaway3 4y ago
  I agree with you on all counts. I have no problem with a person hunting for meat and consuming it. That said, most humans will not hunt, just as they will not grow fruits and vegetables to consume. But by outsourcing the hunting (which essentially has led to the industrial farming of meat), everyone who eats such meat is complicit in the cruelty meted out to animals.
  - deepzn 4y ago
    There was an interview I watched recently that said the whole factory animal farming industry basically relies on maintaining a distance between the consumer and the farms, as the average consumer doesn't want to think or consider how the meat arrived, etc. Also what is jaw dropping, is the scale of slaughter of many different animals. Perhaps none more than chicken. I don't remember the exact number(can easily google) but it is massive. I do think we need to consider how all this scale has helped drive down costs and availability of food which further helped alleviate human hunger around the world. Though, I feel sad every time I hear of a story of a barn fire at one of these farms killing like 50K chickens at once. Or the recent bird flu cases, where they need to cull all the birds to stop it from spreading. And I remember the stories during the onset of Covid, where they had to basically cull huge numbers of animals, because restaurants, etc would shut down for the near future. One other thing that has felt awful to me is that of mink farming. I don't understand how that business still exists(some places it's banned, but not everywhere). Especially with all the textile technology, and means we have in today's world, it seems morally wrong to subject these these animals to suffer needlessly, and also get affected by these flu's, etc. which leads to massive culls.
mejutoco 4y ago
What if plants are sentient too? after all, they react to stimulus and grow towards light, etc. Maybe we are just more keen on protecting life that is more like us.
- 5F7bGnd6fWJ66xN 4y ago
  Plants are sentient. Proved back in early 1900ss https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6702694/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6702694/
0xcafecafe 4y ago
I did grow up in a religious vegetarian family but my rationale for remaining vegetarian is simple. We derive all our energy from the sun. The more hops between myself and the source, the less efficient the energy transfer. For now plants to me is the most efficient way I know. I still eat dairy and eggs but no meat for that reason.
qup 4y ago
Ignoring the actual question you pose, I think it's really unlikely some aliens come here to eat us. We eat for energy and raw materials. I doubt humans will eat for much longer. In 1000 years we'll have solved the problems with these meat contraptions housing our compute. We'll probably work on sunlight by then. Maybe we'll borrow the genetics from plants. Fun times.

rendall 4y ago

> Shouldn't we all feel the same about another sentient species? It really depends on how they taste.

ben_w 4y ago
Tastes are our evolved response to support us in an environment we no longer occupy. This is also why ice cream and candy manages to be bad for us (in the quantities we consume) despite tasting delicious. Note that morality isn't part of evolution's calculus any more than it would be for leopards eating your face.
- marcusverus 4y ago
  > Tastes are our evolved response to support us in an environment we no longer occupy. The same can be said for all human pleasures. Do you disdain them all?
  - ben_w 4y ago
    Incorrect; many human pleasures revolve around other humans, and those are (in all important regards) as much a part of our environment today as 100kya. For the rest, I distain only those which violate my sense of empathy, which asks "would I be OK if the tables were turned?": that we enjoy games of skill involving throwing things is seldom important but morally neutral, that we act as though calories is scarce is bad on a personal level but again not a moral concern (I don't think hunger is generally caused by others overeating).

RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago

What are your thoughts about bears eating elk? Unlike some other predators bears are actually omnivores, and could eat other foods. If we encountered an alien race that hunted and ate humans like bears eat elk, we would also be disgusted.

melagonster 4y ago
we just try to kill them. look how human treat other human>
hnthrowaway3 4y ago
Bears eating elk seems okay to me, partly because it seems like they are born that way and they haven't evolved beyond their basic instinct to eat and survive. It seems that as human beings, we have a higher order skill named empathy. We feel pain and suffering and are able to relate to the pain and suffering of others - even if they are animals. Once this evolution has happened, is it still right to continue inflicting pain and suffering for ones own benefit?
anigbrowl 4y ago
we would also be disgusted Would we? the Predator film franchise is popular because the alien visitor is an obvious dark reflection of ourselves. Ridley Scott's Alien franchise is considered more horror than action because the creature is parasitical and asocial. (Incidentally you should check out his TV shows Raised by Wolves for yet another perspective.)

tjbiddle 4y ago

I've personally always held the opposite belief. If another species is sentient enough to kill & eat me, then so be it - that's life. If I walk into the jungle and a tiger devours me, well - I lost. If aliens come down and decide that's how they want to treat us - well, shit. I'm going to learn how to evade or befriend them.

hnthrowaway3 4y ago
Yes, but if say tigers (or any other species) started "farming" humans and slaughtering them well before the end of their natural life span, would you still be ok with it?
HarHarVeryFunny 4y ago
Well, sure, if you were a wild human. But what if you were one raised on the alien's human factory farm. Maybe they had a taste for human babies (like humans do for cow babies), or human fois gras ... But I guess there's not much you could do other than stoic acceptance.
- qup 4y ago
  I'll take it over no existence, if I'm a human. (I'll probably pass on being a chicken on an industrial farm, thanks) I'm a wild human no matter where you put me. Anything can happen.

Tangurena2 4y ago

A reasonably common theme in SF stories is that after we encounter some other intelligent, star-faring, race, that both races find each other delicious. After reading about intelligence and feelings in other animals, I find myself eating less meat. Even fish & insects have been shown to experience pain.

zabzonk 4y ago
for example, "from gustible's planet" by cordwainer smith https://gutenberg.ca/ebooks/smithcordwainer-fromgustiblesplanet/smithcordwainer-fromgustiblesplanet-00-h.html https://gutenberg.ca/ebooks/smithcordwainer-fromgustiblespla...

marcusverus 4y ago

> I would feel disgusted/horrified/angry. This is the appropriate response to the thought of your species being slaughtered for food. Happily, there's no reason to assume that any other species is capable of contemplating such a thing! They are capable of feeling pain, of course, which is a good argument against eating veal or foie gras. But it's hardly a reason to not eat any meat. If you're eating free range chickens or pasture-raised beef, it's likely that the animal you're eating lived a pretty good life and had one bad day.

rmvt 4y ago
> This is the appropriate response to the thought of your species being slaughtered for food not necessarily. there are a lot of assumptions you're making here > there's no reason to assume that any other species is capable of contemplating such a thing! you don't know this > If you're eating free range chickens or pasture-raised beef in case that by "free range chicken" and "pasture-raised beef" you mean the same that the indurstry does by using those terms, you should do some research into how those animals are actually raised and the lives they live
ethanbond 4y ago
There’s plenty reason to suspect other animals are capable of this experience. We know for example that elephants will mourn their dead. Spend any time with a dog and you’ll realize they too are clearly affected when their loved ones are gone. As far as I’m aware, the overall trend is that as we learn more and more about animals, they consistently have richer and more complex lives than we thought they had previously. “Non-human animals can’t experience complex emotion” is the bold claim that relies on unproven exceptionalism. That is the claim we have no evidence for.

linuxftw 4y ago

While people aren't eaten today (mostly), it doesn't mean they're not consumed. They're conscripted and forced to die in trenches. Many live menial laborious lives so the few can live in opulence. In simpler times, at least we could identify our rules. The Indians could easily identify the white British as their exploiters. Today we have an amalgamation of international corporations, billionaires, royalty, and dictators (did I repeat myself?) exploiting us.

rqtwteye 4y ago

My main objection to meat eating is the way we raise animals for meat, especially on an industrial scale. These animals are suffering immensely throughout their whole lives. I find it difficult to reconcile thinking of ourselves as ethical while we support these practices. I have less of a problem with people hunting for food. The animals can live their normal lives and one day it's over, either because of a mountain lion or a human. That's the way nature works. Of course there is the problem that there are too many humans and they would quickly kill all wild animals.

hnthrowaway3 4y ago
I agree with you on all counts. I have no problem with a person hunting for meat and consuming it. That said, most humans will not hunt, just as they will not grow fruits and vegetables to consume. But by outsourcing the hunting (which essentially has led to the industrial farming of meat), everyone who eats such meat is complicit in the cruelty meted out to animals.
- deepzn 4y ago
  There was an interview I watched recently that said the whole factory animal farming industry basically relies on maintaining a distance between the consumer and the farms, as the average consumer doesn't want to think or consider how the meat arrived, etc. Also what is jaw dropping, is the scale of slaughter of many different animals. Perhaps none more than chicken. I don't remember the exact number(can easily google) but it is massive. I do think we need to consider how all this scale has helped drive down costs and availability of food which further helped alleviate human hunger around the world. Though, I feel sad every time I hear of a story of a barn fire at one of these farms killing like 50K chickens at once. Or the recent bird flu cases, where they need to cull all the birds to stop it from spreading. And I remember the stories during the onset of Covid, where they had to basically cull huge numbers of animals, because restaurants, etc would shut down for the near future. One other thing that has felt awful to me is that of mink farming. I don't understand how that business still exists(some places it's banned, but not everywhere). Especially with all the textile technology, and means we have in today's world, it seems morally wrong to subject these these animals to suffer needlessly, and also get affected by these flu's, etc. which leads to massive culls.

mejutoco 4y ago

What if plants are sentient too? after all, they react to stimulus and grow towards light, etc. Maybe we are just more keen on protecting life that is more like us.

5F7bGnd6fWJ66xN 4y ago
Plants are sentient. Proved back in early 1900ss https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6702694/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6702694/

0xcafecafe 4y ago

I did grow up in a religious vegetarian family but my rationale for remaining vegetarian is simple. We derive all our energy from the sun. The more hops between myself and the source, the less efficient the energy transfer. For now plants to me is the most efficient way I know. I still eat dairy and eggs but no meat for that reason.

qup 4y ago

Ignoring the actual question you pose, I think it's really unlikely some aliens come here to eat us. We eat for energy and raw materials. I doubt humans will eat for much longer. In 1000 years we'll have solved the problems with these meat contraptions housing our compute. We'll probably work on sunlight by then. Maybe we'll borrow the genetics from plants. Fun times.