4 ms·

Simple legislative fix: entitle the victim (small business) to quickly and easily claim a trademark infringement on an ad, and claw back 100% of Google's revenu

Simple legislative fix: entitle the victim (small business) to quickly and easily claim a trademark infringement on an ad, and claw back 100% of Google's revenue on that ad. And let Google be civilly liable, if they choose to contest such a trademark claim and they're in the wrong. Inspired by YouTube's DMCA claim system (or my superficial understanding of it). If there's a "bug bounty" on fraud, there will be an enthusiastic market for identifying it. If ad fraud doesn't reliably pay, the fraud market will be disincentivized. Finally, Google itself will have incentives less mis-aligned with its users'; its current incentive system being "the fraudsters pay us more; therefore we love fraud!"

specialist 4y ago
Any chance you have model legislation (for me to use)? Two years ago, I got fluffed up about scammers claiming unclaimed businesses. Like the food delivery startups (like Doctorow mentions). I started talking to my reps (city council, state) but haven't gotten any further. And I don't know where to start drafting the legislation. With some sort of resolution or model legislation, I can shop it around, get the ball rolling. Like chamber of commerce, some scammed businesses, my representatives. Thanks.
psychlops 4y ago
> If there's a "bug bounty" on fraud, there will be an enthusiastic market for identifying it. Not to mention a cottage industry of creating then "solving" the ad fraud. I imagine Google's solution for this would be 100% Yelp.
dsr_ 4y ago
The FTC has jurisdiction here. No new law is required. Complaints need to be made.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- hunter2_ 4y ago
  I think the "fix" proposed here is that it be as frictionless as sending a DMCA notice. Is what you're talking about that easy? Sounds like we need scammy middleware between regular people and the complaint system to keep complaints flowing, monetize later!
  - dsr_ 4y ago
    It is easier than sending a DMCA notice. https://reportfraud.ftc.gov/#/faq https://reportfraud.ftc.gov/#/faq
greenthrow 4y ago
This is already illegal. Mom and Pop businesses don't have the resourced to wage legal battles and in the time it would take to get an injunction, the scam has more than paid for itself. The solution here is for Amex and Google to do their jobs properly.
- nmridul 4y ago
  Since lot of sme are impacted, could they join and sue ? I am not an American so could be wrong here - could class action suites be of help here ?
  - greenthrow 4y ago
    They could maybe form a class action suit but those take ages too. The legal system isn't the solution here.
- wahnfrieden 4y ago
  How is it a solution to say that successful businesses should voluntarily shave their profits? Why do we look to these disreputable actors to reform themselves?
vorpalhex 4y ago
If a real and thorny problem seems to have a trivial answer.. there's a good chance the trivial answer is incorrect. Amazon has a system like this, where you can "claim" listings. It's how scam products get all those five star reviews for some other profuct. They find a t-shirt or some little thing doing well and file claim after claim until they win the listing.
- curiousllama 4y ago
  Yea, this is the answer. If it’s easy to file a complaint, scammers will just file a million complaints to (wrongly) win 1%, and walk away with the $
  - nico 4y ago
    Well, even if it’s hard… look at accident attorneys in the US. They might not technically be scammers, but man does it feel close to it.
- ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
  > If a real and thorny problem seems to have a trivial answer.. there's a good chance the trivial answer is incorrect. Two of my favorite H. L. Mencken quotes: "There's always an easy solution to every human problem; Neat, plausible and wrong." "The fact that I have no remedy for all the sorrows of the world is no reason for my accepting yours. It simply supports the strong probability that yours is a fake." And this one: "Any proposal must be viewed as follows. Do not pay overly much attention to the benefits that might be delivered were the law in question to be properly enforced, rather one needs to consider the harm done by the improper enforcement of this particular piece of legislation, whatever it might be." -Lyndon B. Johnson
  - prottog 4y ago
    Ironic, coming from LBJ.
    - pfisherman 4y ago
partiallypro 4y ago
Google is already fairly strict this, at least for bigger company trademark keywords. It falls through the cracks with you are talking about SMBs.
- wahnfrieden 4y ago
  Or in other words, Google is not strict with this, but goes out of its way to protect other big business
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
anigbrowl 4y ago
Simple legislative fix Unless you have a magic wand, simplicity usually masks conflicting incentives backed by lots of political, financial, and legal capital. It's like looking at a war and saying 'why don't people just stop fighting, because peace would be nicer.' The social default is to look at problems as examples of individual deviance from a principled ideal. It's more instructive to look at them as examples of resource mobilization in contested/conflicted spaces. The italicized words are terms of art in social science that represent two prominent schools of thought (which are themselves in competition).
kube-system 4y ago
The DMCA shields content providers from copyright liability. What you’re probably thinking of is YouTube’s voluntary ContentID system and related policies that they started doing to make Viacom happy. It doesn’t really have anything to do with the DMCA. Broadly speaking, when someone infringes trademark, they are entitled to the damages done, which are likely much greater than the ad revenue here.

specialist 4y ago

Any chance you have model legislation (for me to use)? Two years ago, I got fluffed up about scammers claiming unclaimed businesses. Like the food delivery startups (like Doctorow mentions). I started talking to my reps (city council, state) but haven't gotten any further. And I don't know where to start drafting the legislation. With some sort of resolution or model legislation, I can shop it around, get the ball rolling. Like chamber of commerce, some scammed businesses, my representatives. Thanks.

psychlops 4y ago

> If there's a "bug bounty" on fraud, there will be an enthusiastic market for identifying it. Not to mention a cottage industry of creating then "solving" the ad fraud. I imagine Google's solution for this would be 100% Yelp.

dsr_ 4y ago

The FTC has jurisdiction here. No new law is required. Complaints need to be made.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
hunter2_ 4y ago
I think the "fix" proposed here is that it be as frictionless as sending a DMCA notice. Is what you're talking about that easy? Sounds like we need scammy middleware between regular people and the complaint system to keep complaints flowing, monetize later!
- dsr_ 4y ago
  It is easier than sending a DMCA notice. https://reportfraud.ftc.gov/#/faq https://reportfraud.ftc.gov/#/faq

greenthrow 4y ago

This is already illegal. Mom and Pop businesses don't have the resourced to wage legal battles and in the time it would take to get an injunction, the scam has more than paid for itself. The solution here is for Amex and Google to do their jobs properly.

nmridul 4y ago
Since lot of sme are impacted, could they join and sue ? I am not an American so could be wrong here - could class action suites be of help here ?
- greenthrow 4y ago
  They could maybe form a class action suit but those take ages too. The legal system isn't the solution here.
wahnfrieden 4y ago
How is it a solution to say that successful businesses should voluntarily shave their profits? Why do we look to these disreputable actors to reform themselves?

vorpalhex 4y ago

If a real and thorny problem seems to have a trivial answer.. there's a good chance the trivial answer is incorrect. Amazon has a system like this, where you can "claim" listings. It's how scam products get all those five star reviews for some other profuct. They find a t-shirt or some little thing doing well and file claim after claim until they win the listing.

curiousllama 4y ago
Yea, this is the answer. If it’s easy to file a complaint, scammers will just file a million complaints to (wrongly) win 1%, and walk away with the $
- nico 4y ago
  Well, even if it’s hard… look at accident attorneys in the US. They might not technically be scammers, but man does it feel close to it.
ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
> If a real and thorny problem seems to have a trivial answer.. there's a good chance the trivial answer is incorrect. Two of my favorite H. L. Mencken quotes: "There's always an easy solution to every human problem; Neat, plausible and wrong." "The fact that I have no remedy for all the sorrows of the world is no reason for my accepting yours. It simply supports the strong probability that yours is a fake." And this one: "Any proposal must be viewed as follows. Do not pay overly much attention to the benefits that might be delivered were the law in question to be properly enforced, rather one needs to consider the harm done by the improper enforcement of this particular piece of legislation, whatever it might be." -Lyndon B. Johnson
- prottog 4y ago
  Ironic, coming from LBJ.
  - pfisherman 4y ago

partiallypro 4y ago

Google is already fairly strict this, at least for bigger company trademark keywords. It falls through the cracks with you are talking about SMBs.

wahnfrieden 4y ago
Or in other words, Google is not strict with this, but goes out of its way to protect other big business

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

anigbrowl 4y ago

Simple legislative fix Unless you have a magic wand, simplicity usually masks conflicting incentives backed by lots of political, financial, and legal capital. It's like looking at a war and saying 'why don't people just stop fighting, because peace would be nicer.' The social default is to look at problems as examples of individual deviance from a principled ideal. It's more instructive to look at them as examples of resource mobilization in contested/conflicted spaces. The italicized words are terms of art in social science that represent two prominent schools of thought (which are themselves in competition).

kube-system 4y ago

The DMCA shields content providers from copyright liability. What you’re probably thinking of is YouTube’s voluntary ContentID system and related policies that they started doing to make Viacom happy. It doesn’t really have anything to do with the DMCA. Broadly speaking, when someone infringes trademark, they are entitled to the damages done, which are likely much greater than the ad revenue here.