3 ms·

What the article doesn't highlight at all is the octopus' very short lifespan (the longest-lived species has a maximum lifespan of 5 years) and that they die sh

by rob74 4y ago

What the article doesn't highlight at all is the octopus' very short lifespan (the longest-lived species has a maximum lifespan of 5 years) and that they die shortly after breeding, which means it's not possible for young octopuses to learn from their parents the way other relatively intelligent animals (cats, dogs, monkeys, dolphins etc.) do. Having these handicaps (growing up without parents and short lifespan) is one possible explanation for why they developed their high intelligence.

gatinsama 4y ago
That also explains why they haven't taken over the world yet :)
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- Nevermark 4y ago
  It really does. Given how smart, versatile and dextrous the octopus is, its impressive array of senses, and its highly creative use of tools, I can only conjecture that the ocean environment is not conducive to an accretion of technology. I.e. the corrosive ocean water makes the possibility of complex technology difficult, so the octopus hasn't been able to evolve into a longer lived, more socially cooperative creature. Fire, chemistry, long term construction ... impossible or difficult. Because otherwise they seem to have everything. Even latent social ability, despite their typical loner existence. Another impediment is that hiding (their unshelled tasty soft bodies) really well is one of the hallmarks of their intelligence. That would tend to preclude tight cooperative social groups.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
agumonkey 4y ago
They don't interact with other adult octopussies ?
- Ygg2 4y ago
  Adult octopi eat younger ones.
  - kerpotgh 4y ago
    [dead]
webdoodle 4y ago
I just finished reading Eric Hoffer's Ordeal of Change. It's a great book exploring the behavior and psychology of people who make change happen. In the last few chapters he summarizes it by saying: "The severing of the individual from a compact group is an operation from which the individual never fully recovers. The individual on his own remains a chronically incomplete and unbalanced entity. His creative efforts and passionate pursuits are at the bottom a blind striving for wholeness and balance. The individual striving to realize himself and prove his worth has created all that is great in literature, art, music, science and technology." It clearly applies to many apex predators that spend most of their lives on there own.
el_nahual 4y ago
> Having these handicaps (growing up without parents and short lifespan) is one possible explanation for why they developed their high intelligence. That argument makes sense, but is exactly the opposite of what we see in nature in every case except the octopus. Intelligent animals tend to live a long time (apes, elephants, dolphins). One assumes that it's because the advantages to intelligence accrete over long periods. If you're only going to live a few years, you want to devote all your energy to being strong and fast. This is one of the things that makes octopuses so baffling.
- qup 4y ago
  You picked three mammals for your example of an age-intelligence correlation. Maybe it's just a large mammal thing? I think most large mammals live a long time.
  - el_nahual 4y ago
    Ravens live 10-15 years in the wild (much longer in captivity). I don't believe we know of any very intelligent animals that are not mammals or (maybe?) some long-lived birds or octopuses.
stewbrew 4y ago
I don't follow. Why should they develop a high intelligence if the don't have a chance to learn from others? Usually, these others are your parents.
- mason55 4y ago
  If you can't learn from your parents then the more you can figure out on your own, the better your chances of survival. And intelligence allows each individual to figure out things on their own and adapt to new situations even better than if they just repeated whatever they learned from their parents.
  - stewbrew 4y ago
    I doubt this is how nature works - with the exception of octopuses, it seems. In most environments, you probably get eaten or starve to death before you have time to figure it all out yourself.
    - rob74 4y ago
      For every octopus that reaches adulthood there are probably hundreds who get eaten or starve to death...
      - stewbrew 4y ago
        Sure but why should they get (somewhat) smart then? Or are you proposing only the smartass octupuses survive?
        mason55 4y ago
        > Or are you proposing only the smartass octupuses survive? Yes, that's how evolution works. Some octopus is a little bit smarter than the others and is able to escape a predator by hiding in a hole. She doesn't get eaten today and so is able to reproduce tomorrow. Some of her 100,000 eggs have her genes for higher intelligence. The octopus kids who are slightly more intelligent are also slightly more likely to survive and reproduce. And if the genes for intelligence build on each other then at some point the smart octopusses will have a kid or a few kids who are even a little bit smarter and survive a little bit better. Maybe they're smart enough to figure out they can hide under a shell. If you're able to learn "hide under a shell" from your parents then you don't need to be that smart. But if each individual is able to figure out "hide under a shell" from first principles then that's a huge advantage. Maybe you ended up far from home and the shells look different here. Congrats, your octopus can still figure it out, but your imprinted animal is now dinner. The octopus can still reproduce and pass along his "smart" genes.
xkcd-sucks 4y ago
And it isn't just a "normal" short lifespan - The octopus lifecycle ends with self-harm and what in humans would be called depression, in addition to other more typical hallmarks of senescence, and this is a complicated process involving a whole bunch of signaling systems which is centrally coordinated by an endocrine gland! https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6198452/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6198452/

by rob74 4y ago

gatinsama 4y ago

That also explains why they haven't taken over the world yet :)

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Nevermark 4y ago
It really does. Given how smart, versatile and dextrous the octopus is, its impressive array of senses, and its highly creative use of tools, I can only conjecture that the ocean environment is not conducive to an accretion of technology. I.e. the corrosive ocean water makes the possibility of complex technology difficult, so the octopus hasn't been able to evolve into a longer lived, more socially cooperative creature. Fire, chemistry, long term construction ... impossible or difficult. Because otherwise they seem to have everything. Even latent social ability, despite their typical loner existence. Another impediment is that hiding (their unshelled tasty soft bodies) really well is one of the hallmarks of their intelligence. That would tend to preclude tight cooperative social groups.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

agumonkey 4y ago

They don't interact with other adult octopussies ?

Ygg2 4y ago
Adult octopi eat younger ones.
- kerpotgh 4y ago
  [dead]

webdoodle 4y ago

I just finished reading Eric Hoffer's Ordeal of Change. It's a great book exploring the behavior and psychology of people who make change happen. In the last few chapters he summarizes it by saying: "The severing of the individual from a compact group is an operation from which the individual never fully recovers. The individual on his own remains a chronically incomplete and unbalanced entity. His creative efforts and passionate pursuits are at the bottom a blind striving for wholeness and balance. The individual striving to realize himself and prove his worth has created all that is great in literature, art, music, science and technology." It clearly applies to many apex predators that spend most of their lives on there own.

el_nahual 4y ago

> Having these handicaps (growing up without parents and short lifespan) is one possible explanation for why they developed their high intelligence. That argument makes sense, but is exactly the opposite of what we see in nature in every case except the octopus. Intelligent animals tend to live a long time (apes, elephants, dolphins). One assumes that it's because the advantages to intelligence accrete over long periods. If you're only going to live a few years, you want to devote all your energy to being strong and fast. This is one of the things that makes octopuses so baffling.

qup 4y ago
You picked three mammals for your example of an age-intelligence correlation. Maybe it's just a large mammal thing? I think most large mammals live a long time.
- el_nahual 4y ago
  Ravens live 10-15 years in the wild (much longer in captivity). I don't believe we know of any very intelligent animals that are not mammals or (maybe?) some long-lived birds or octopuses.

stewbrew 4y ago

I don't follow. Why should they develop a high intelligence if the don't have a chance to learn from others? Usually, these others are your parents.

mason55 4y ago
If you can't learn from your parents then the more you can figure out on your own, the better your chances of survival. And intelligence allows each individual to figure out things on their own and adapt to new situations even better than if they just repeated whatever they learned from their parents.
- stewbrew 4y ago
  I doubt this is how nature works - with the exception of octopuses, it seems. In most environments, you probably get eaten or starve to death before you have time to figure it all out yourself.
  - rob74 4y ago
    For every octopus that reaches adulthood there are probably hundreds who get eaten or starve to death...
    - stewbrew 4y ago
      Sure but why should they get (somewhat) smart then? Or are you proposing only the smartass octupuses survive?
      - mason55 4y ago
        > Or are you proposing only the smartass octupuses survive? Yes, that's how evolution works. Some octopus is a little bit smarter than the others and is able to escape a predator by hiding in a hole. She doesn't get eaten today and so is able to reproduce tomorrow. Some of her 100,000 eggs have her genes for higher intelligence. The octopus kids who are slightly more intelligent are also slightly more likely to survive and reproduce. And if the genes for intelligence build on each other then at some point the smart octopusses will have a kid or a few kids who are even a little bit smarter and survive a little bit better. Maybe they're smart enough to figure out they can hide under a shell. If you're able to learn "hide under a shell" from your parents then you don't need to be that smart. But if each individual is able to figure out "hide under a shell" from first principles then that's a huge advantage. Maybe you ended up far from home and the shells look different here. Congrats, your octopus can still figure it out, but your imprinted animal is now dinner. The octopus can still reproduce and pass along his "smart" genes.

xkcd-sucks 4y ago

And it isn't just a "normal" short lifespan - The octopus lifecycle ends with self-harm and what in humans would be called depression, in addition to other more typical hallmarks of senescence, and this is a complicated process involving a whole bunch of signaling systems which is centrally coordinated by an endocrine gland! https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6198452/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6198452/