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Delivery drones: groan. The most compelling use of an advancement such as this should not be so that we can fill the air with constant noise pollution. Drones

Delivery drones: groan. The most compelling use of an advancement such as this should not be so that we can fill the air with constant noise pollution. Drones are loud, noisy, intrusive things, and really should not be a delivery vector in most places. This battery tech, with improvements, since the headline is aspiration and not factual, could well be used in commercial aircraft, vehicles, on boats including commercial vessels, or in plenty of other applications where the environmental benefits of having lighter, cleaner technology is important.

yarg 4y ago
They've proved useful in Ukraine.
- TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
  Concorde was also useful in general, yet thanks to sound breaking noise was not allowed to fly over land supersonic. Now imagine 4, 8 or bigger combo of flying vacuum cleaners in 3am. People are going to eat you alive.
- 4gotunameagain 4y ago
  So should we develop everything using the criterion "will it prove useful in an active warzone" ?
  - SiempreViernes 4y ago
    As that criterion would sink most of the ad-tech industry, maybe it actually has some hidden merit? ;)
  - llamaLord 4y ago
    To be fair... a non-trivial percentage of the major breakthroughs in human science/engineering were developed to have some form of impact on an active warzone.
- yourusername 4y ago
  So has 155mm Artillery, i'd also prefer that not be used in city limits.
quickthrower2 4y ago
Ion drive would be silent
CalRobert 4y ago
I agree but it might be worthwhile if it removes loud and annoying delivery vans from cities.
- Bluestrike2 4y ago
  But we'd just be replacing loud and annoying delivery vans with loud and annoying delivery drones. If anything, flying delivery drones would be more annoying, given that they're buzzing around at greater heights, right outside the window of your mid-rise apartment building. You'd also see a lot more drones, since they're only carrying one package at a time and returning to their depot for each new one. By comparison, a single delivery truck carries up to a couple hundred, depending on their size. If we ever get to the point where delivery drones might become common place, people are going to lose their freaking minds once they hear the noise. It'll make the normal NIMBYism that pops up every time someone wants to build something in a city to decry the inconvenience of it look positively benign.
  - CalRobert 4y ago
    I mostly agree - the noise would be annoying. But drones are less likely to kill my kids while they bike to school, which would be nice.
- danans 4y ago
  A new Rivian-made Amazon Prime electric delivery van went down my street today. Whisper quiet except for the required low-speed noise-maker (like all EVs).
  - potatochup 4y ago
    I think the low speed noise maker is just in reverse though? At least it's true for the Amazon vans around me
    - danans 4y ago
      All EVs are required to have low-speed (up to 18.6mph) noise makers even when moving forward. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-regulations-sounds/u-s-finalizes-long-delayed-quiet-cars-rule-extending-deadline-idUSKCN1GA2GV https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-regulations-sounds/...
Gravityloss 4y ago
Delivery trucks are quite annoying and accidentally drive over people sometimes... At some point drones will probably be better than that (not yet). Every time I go to my city center with the train, from the train station I first have to cross a few busy streets with a lot of car and truck traffic before getting to the walkable parts. Only then it feels I'm actually in the city. Probably one could easily measure the stress level lowering. Would drones make it better or worse? Maybe they could fly high and operate on rooftops, unnoticeable from street level?
- Retric 4y ago
  NYC has had a handful of fatal helicopter crashes and largely banned helicopter pads in the city even though they such flights where never very common. The idea that say 10,000+ large drones can safely and continuously fly over a city is ludicrous. You could use even larger drones to cut down on flights but now they’re even more dangerous. Rather than drones the obvious safe solution is to use small tunnels for underground delivery which various cities have used at small scales, but such dedicated infrastructure isn’t cost effective. And delivery drivers aren’t common enough to make a real difference by taking them off the road. However, several same day package delivery companies do make use of the subway.
  - Gravityloss 4y ago
    Tunnels indeed would be good. But I understand there the problem is scale. It's not so easy to make a large amount of small tunnels for traffic? (They are possible for piping though for some reason). But easier to make one big tunnel. For drones, it's the opposite, they are very well suited for very small point to point connection, there is basically no infrastructure needed between the points whatsoever?
    - withinboredom 4y ago
      Right. There’s no infrastructure needed, just already existing infrastructure like power lines, telephone poles, radio towers, buildings, gusts of wind, signs, etc.
vagabund 4y ago
This is probably a stupid question, but assuming some noise pollution is inevitable, is it plausible that a motor could be tuned, or have its noise output "converted" in some way to emit a pitch higher than the frequency range audible to human ears? Or even a lower frequency that was more in line with the existing noise pollution we're accustomed to. Edit: maybe we could RL a somewhat efficient ornithopter. A mechanical harpy eagle with owl-like noise dampening serrations on its wings would look way cooler flying through our cities and be much quieter.
- rgmerk 4y ago
  Wing has already changed their drones to attempt to reduce the annoyance from the noise. Better batteries may also assist to make drones quieter: if you have a bigger energy budget, you can afford to waste some of it using quieter but less efficient propulsion (like those toroidal rotors discussed here a little while ago).
- adamweld 4y ago
  Simple answer: drone noise is a combination of narrow band and broad band noise. The narrow band frequency comes from the RPM of the rotors spinning, but the broad band noise comes from the turbulence inherent to propeller lift production and the frequency cannot be contained to above/below human hearing. The overall magnitude of the noise production can be reduced a bit by using lighter vehicles (less thrust needed) and more efficient propellers, but it's never going to be quiet unless we do away with propellers, which is very unlikely to happen.
- Tagbert 4y ago
  There are blade designs specifically tuned to reduce noise. This is a recent new design. “Toroidal propellers: A noise-killing game changer in air and water” https://newatlas.com/aircraft/toroidal-quiet-propellers/ https://newatlas.com/aircraft/toroidal-quiet-propellers/

yarg 4y ago

They've proved useful in Ukraine.

TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
Concorde was also useful in general, yet thanks to sound breaking noise was not allowed to fly over land supersonic. Now imagine 4, 8 or bigger combo of flying vacuum cleaners in 3am. People are going to eat you alive.
4gotunameagain 4y ago
So should we develop everything using the criterion "will it prove useful in an active warzone" ?
- SiempreViernes 4y ago
  As that criterion would sink most of the ad-tech industry, maybe it actually has some hidden merit? ;)
- llamaLord 4y ago
  To be fair... a non-trivial percentage of the major breakthroughs in human science/engineering were developed to have some form of impact on an active warzone.
yourusername 4y ago
So has 155mm Artillery, i'd also prefer that not be used in city limits.

quickthrower2 4y ago

Ion drive would be silent

CalRobert 4y ago

I agree but it might be worthwhile if it removes loud and annoying delivery vans from cities.

Bluestrike2 4y ago
But we'd just be replacing loud and annoying delivery vans with loud and annoying delivery drones. If anything, flying delivery drones would be more annoying, given that they're buzzing around at greater heights, right outside the window of your mid-rise apartment building. You'd also see a lot more drones, since they're only carrying one package at a time and returning to their depot for each new one. By comparison, a single delivery truck carries up to a couple hundred, depending on their size. If we ever get to the point where delivery drones might become common place, people are going to lose their freaking minds once they hear the noise. It'll make the normal NIMBYism that pops up every time someone wants to build something in a city to decry the inconvenience of it look positively benign.
- CalRobert 4y ago
  I mostly agree - the noise would be annoying. But drones are less likely to kill my kids while they bike to school, which would be nice.
danans 4y ago
A new Rivian-made Amazon Prime electric delivery van went down my street today. Whisper quiet except for the required low-speed noise-maker (like all EVs).
- potatochup 4y ago
  I think the low speed noise maker is just in reverse though? At least it's true for the Amazon vans around me
  - danans 4y ago
    All EVs are required to have low-speed (up to 18.6mph) noise makers even when moving forward. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-regulations-sounds/u-s-finalizes-long-delayed-quiet-cars-rule-extending-deadline-idUSKCN1GA2GV https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-regulations-sounds/...

Gravityloss 4y ago

Delivery trucks are quite annoying and accidentally drive over people sometimes... At some point drones will probably be better than that (not yet). Every time I go to my city center with the train, from the train station I first have to cross a few busy streets with a lot of car and truck traffic before getting to the walkable parts. Only then it feels I'm actually in the city. Probably one could easily measure the stress level lowering. Would drones make it better or worse? Maybe they could fly high and operate on rooftops, unnoticeable from street level?

Retric 4y ago
NYC has had a handful of fatal helicopter crashes and largely banned helicopter pads in the city even though they such flights where never very common. The idea that say 10,000+ large drones can safely and continuously fly over a city is ludicrous. You could use even larger drones to cut down on flights but now they’re even more dangerous. Rather than drones the obvious safe solution is to use small tunnels for underground delivery which various cities have used at small scales, but such dedicated infrastructure isn’t cost effective. And delivery drivers aren’t common enough to make a real difference by taking them off the road. However, several same day package delivery companies do make use of the subway.
- Gravityloss 4y ago
  Tunnels indeed would be good. But I understand there the problem is scale. It's not so easy to make a large amount of small tunnels for traffic? (They are possible for piping though for some reason). But easier to make one big tunnel. For drones, it's the opposite, they are very well suited for very small point to point connection, there is basically no infrastructure needed between the points whatsoever?
  - withinboredom 4y ago
    Right. There’s no infrastructure needed, just already existing infrastructure like power lines, telephone poles, radio towers, buildings, gusts of wind, signs, etc.

vagabund 4y ago

This is probably a stupid question, but assuming some noise pollution is inevitable, is it plausible that a motor could be tuned, or have its noise output "converted" in some way to emit a pitch higher than the frequency range audible to human ears? Or even a lower frequency that was more in line with the existing noise pollution we're accustomed to. Edit: maybe we could RL a somewhat efficient ornithopter. A mechanical harpy eagle with owl-like noise dampening serrations on its wings would look way cooler flying through our cities and be much quieter.

rgmerk 4y ago
Wing has already changed their drones to attempt to reduce the annoyance from the noise. Better batteries may also assist to make drones quieter: if you have a bigger energy budget, you can afford to waste some of it using quieter but less efficient propulsion (like those toroidal rotors discussed here a little while ago).
adamweld 4y ago
Simple answer: drone noise is a combination of narrow band and broad band noise. The narrow band frequency comes from the RPM of the rotors spinning, but the broad band noise comes from the turbulence inherent to propeller lift production and the frequency cannot be contained to above/below human hearing. The overall magnitude of the noise production can be reduced a bit by using lighter vehicles (less thrust needed) and more efficient propellers, but it's never going to be quiet unless we do away with propellers, which is very unlikely to happen.
Tagbert 4y ago
There are blade designs specifically tuned to reduce noise. This is a recent new design. “Toroidal propellers: A noise-killing game changer in air and water” https://newatlas.com/aircraft/toroidal-quiet-propellers/ https://newatlas.com/aircraft/toroidal-quiet-propellers/