5 ms·

All obesity is fundamentally caused by eating too much because fat contains energy that HAS to come from food.

swatcoder 4y ago
Technically right is the most reliable kind of right, but in this case “too much” means that someone’s body responds differently than expected to the same amount of food. It’s true that the extra stored fat might must come from calories not used or excreted elsewhere, but that might be because their body is very poor at making immediate use of the calories as energy or is unusually efficient at storing energy that might otherwise be used. To put a number to it, a 2000 calorie diet as normally recommended may leave them depleted of energy and increasingly fat. It can take years to discover that kind of “outside the norm” issue, and obesity can easily set in before its recognized let alone addressed. And of course, once obesity does become a part of someone’s life, there’s a whole spiral of challenges that make it hard to overcome. Even moreso when your body doesn’t work normally.
Dove 4y ago
Well, blood sugar contains energy that has to come from somewhere, too, but one would hardly say this means type 2 diabetes is fundamentally caused by eating too much. Shoot, tumors contain energy that has to come from somewhere... Of course, you could rightly reply that there are a lot of complicated things that happen between the food and the problem, and while those diseases require an energy surplus, that neither causes them, nor does trying to naively eliminate the energy surplus fix them. Contrary to popular wisdom, the same is true of obesity. The idea that obesity could be avoided or cured with a little bookkeeping and self control is laughable to just about anyone who has tried. Telling obese people to eat less is like telling depressed people to get over it. You'd be astonished by how ultimately impossible that is if you haven't been there.
- nradov 4y ago
  Type 2 diabetes is fundamentally caused by eating too much of carbohydrates. Most type 2 diabetics can put the condition into remission by changing their diet. https://www.virtahealth.com/research https://www.virtahealth.com/research There are many people who have cured their obesity with a little bookkeeping and self control. Sue Reynolds and David Goggins are a couple of prominent examples, but there are many others. It's not easy, but it's certainly possible. https://suereynolds.net/book/ https://suereynolds.net/book/ https://davidgoggins.com/book/ https://davidgoggins.com/book/
  - Dove 4y ago
    > Type 2 diabetes is fundamentally caused by eating too much of carbohydrates. (Emphasis mine) Fructose, specifically, is the going theory. And I'm a big fan of Virtahealth specifically, and Dr. Fung's approach for treating type 2 diabetes generally. :) However, I'd disagree that we know that that's what causes it. We know that treats it. Cancer is not caused by a lack of chemotherapy, and I think chemotherapy is a good analogy for the fasting and low carb approach in this situation. It is a treatment, not a generally normative lifestyle. But my point is actually more limited, and you actually sort of made it for me by adding the detail about carbohydrates. To wit: just because sugar requires energy, does not mean that you got too much sugar by bringing in too much energy. It's not that simple. You won't get the disease by eating too much protein, for example (you'll get protein poisoning ;) ). You get the disease as a result of liver dysfunction, which you exacerbate and possibly cause by eating too much fructose. It's a control mechanism problem and an injury problem -- the fact that energy is involved (even required!) does not make that the central issue. Cancer requires energy for growth, but that doesn't make energy the central problem. Blood sugar requires energy for dysregulated high levels, but that doesn't make energy the central problem. Fat requires energy for dysregulated growth, but that doesn't make energy the central problem. That's something you have to demonstrate, and rigorous attempts to demonstrate it fail. > There are many people who have cured their obesity with a little bookkeeping and self control ... David Goggins Citing David Goggins as an example of "a little bookkeeping and self control" is hilarious to me. I've read his book. I love his talks. But the guy is about as heroic and extreme as it is possible to get, and that is far from the only thing he did.
    - nradov 4y ago
      I have yet to see a type 2 diabetic who didn't eat excessive quantities of carbohydrates before developing the condition. The details of the exact causative mechanism are interesting, but largely irrelevant from a prevention perspective. My point is that David Goggins is nothing special. He isn't a superhero from the planet Krypton. Anyone can choose to do those things (or at least lesser versions of them). Some people just prefer to sit on the couch eating cookies.
- unmole 4y ago
  > but one would hardly say this means type 2 diabetes is fundamentally caused by eating too much. Eating too much is literally what causes type 2 diabetes.
- HyperSane 4y ago
  The entire purpose of fat is to store excess energy for future use because over human evolution food supply was unreliable enough for this to create an evolutionary advantage. Getting fat from eating a lot of food is completely predictable. "The idea that obesity could be avoided or cured with a little bookkeeping and self control" It absolutely can. Again people just don't want to feel bad about not having enough self control.
  - yunwal 4y ago
    > It absolutely can It can’t. There are many people who, if they simply scaled down their diet without otherwise modifying their nutrient intake/lifestyle, start having health problems well before they lose weight. Hot flashes, fainting, severe stomach pains, nausea.
    - HyperSane 4y ago
      This sounds false to me. I suppose for someone used to eating 10 to 20 thousand calories per day suddenly going to 1500 would be stressful but if gently tapered no one should have any issues.
      - yunwal 4y ago
        I mean the obvious counterexample is someone who eats 1500 calories of real food and 2500 calories of junk food a day. If you scale that down by half you start getting all sorts of nutrient deficiencies well before hitting your target weight. But there are subtler versions of this. People who live in food deserts, only have access to iceberg lettuce and freezer-burned tomatoes as produce are gonna have a tough time getting all the nutrients they need in 2000 calories or less. There’s also others who have very specific dietary needs that they’re not yet aware of.
        nindalf 4y ago
        What's the issue with iceberg lettuce?
perfecthjrjth 4y ago
Calories In Calories Out (CICO) doesn't explain obesity. You are dealing with biochemical machines (humans). CI enters this biochemical machine; here, the signal system should be effective to 'equalize'. Otherwise, you get all kinds of problems: obesity, t2d, cardiovascular events, etc. These new generation of drugs (semaglutide, tirzapatide) deal with the signaling system (endocrine signaling, that is).
- HyperSane 4y ago
  "Calories In Calories Out (CICO) doesn't explain obesity." Yes it does, because it is basically just repeating basic laws of thermodynamics. Obesity is actually just the body working as intended by storing the excess energy for future use during a famine. CICO is why obesity used to be very rare in past when calories were expensive and is now common when calories are very cheap and artificially delicious.
  - perfecthjrjth 4y ago
    Well, two conceptions of human beings are in conflict: (a) humans are controlled by their own "will" (b) signaling system (biochemical interactions) control stuff. (a) is a cultural intuition. Now many life sciences researchers sell us a hybrid version: both (a) and (b) are true.
    - HyperSane 4y ago
      https://www.diabetes.co.uk/blog/2018/02/story-angus-barbieri-went-382-days-without-eating/ https://www.diabetes.co.uk/blog/2018/02/story-angus-barbieri...
kilgnad 4y ago
No. Absorption rates are different. Liquefied fat of the same calories translates to more fat then plant with the same calories. That's just an extreme example. The real culprit is processed foods.
- HyperSane 4y ago
  The difference should not be enough to be the difference from a body fat percentage of 15% to 80%.
  - kilgnad 4y ago
    https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/09/why-it-was-easier-to-be-skinny-in-the-1980s/407974/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/09/why-it-wa... You don't know that.
    - HyperSane 4y ago
      I very much doubt the accuracy of calorie consumption data that article is based on. CICO is so fundamental that I would propose that the current rate of obesity is proof that average net calorie surplus has increased.
      - kilgnad 4y ago
        let's keep it to one thread. I'm ending it here.
        HyperSane 4y ago
        https://www.diabetes.co.uk/blog/2018/02/story-angus-barbieri-went-382-days-without-eating/ https://www.diabetes.co.uk/blog/2018/02/story-angus-barbieri...

Technically right is the most reliable kind of right, but in this case “too much” means that someone’s body responds differently than expected to the same amount of food. It’s true that the extra stored fat might must come from calories not used or excreted elsewhere, but that might be because their body is very poor at making immediate use of the calories as energy or is unusually efficient at storing energy that might otherwise be used. To put a number to it, a 2000 calorie diet as normally recommended may leave them depleted of energy and increasingly fat. It can take years to discover that kind of “outside the norm” issue, and obesity can easily set in before its recognized let alone addressed. And of course, once obesity does become a part of someone’s life, there’s a whole spiral of challenges that make it hard to overcome. Even moreso when your body doesn’t work normally.

Dove 4y ago

Well, blood sugar contains energy that has to come from somewhere, too, but one would hardly say this means type 2 diabetes is fundamentally caused by eating too much. Shoot, tumors contain energy that has to come from somewhere... Of course, you could rightly reply that there are a lot of complicated things that happen between the food and the problem, and while those diseases require an energy surplus, that neither causes them, nor does trying to naively eliminate the energy surplus fix them. Contrary to popular wisdom, the same is true of obesity. The idea that obesity could be avoided or cured with a little bookkeeping and self control is laughable to just about anyone who has tried. Telling obese people to eat less is like telling depressed people to get over it. You'd be astonished by how ultimately impossible that is if you haven't been there.

nradov 4y ago
Type 2 diabetes is fundamentally caused by eating too much of carbohydrates. Most type 2 diabetics can put the condition into remission by changing their diet. https://www.virtahealth.com/research https://www.virtahealth.com/research There are many people who have cured their obesity with a little bookkeeping and self control. Sue Reynolds and David Goggins are a couple of prominent examples, but there are many others. It's not easy, but it's certainly possible. https://suereynolds.net/book/ https://suereynolds.net/book/ https://davidgoggins.com/book/ https://davidgoggins.com/book/
- Dove 4y ago
  > Type 2 diabetes is fundamentally caused by eating too much of carbohydrates. (Emphasis mine) Fructose, specifically, is the going theory. And I'm a big fan of Virtahealth specifically, and Dr. Fung's approach for treating type 2 diabetes generally. :) However, I'd disagree that we know that that's what causes it. We know that treats it. Cancer is not caused by a lack of chemotherapy, and I think chemotherapy is a good analogy for the fasting and low carb approach in this situation. It is a treatment, not a generally normative lifestyle. But my point is actually more limited, and you actually sort of made it for me by adding the detail about carbohydrates. To wit: just because sugar requires energy, does not mean that you got too much sugar by bringing in too much energy. It's not that simple. You won't get the disease by eating too much protein, for example (you'll get protein poisoning ;) ). You get the disease as a result of liver dysfunction, which you exacerbate and possibly cause by eating too much fructose. It's a control mechanism problem and an injury problem -- the fact that energy is involved (even required!) does not make that the central issue. Cancer requires energy for growth, but that doesn't make energy the central problem. Blood sugar requires energy for dysregulated high levels, but that doesn't make energy the central problem. Fat requires energy for dysregulated growth, but that doesn't make energy the central problem. That's something you have to demonstrate, and rigorous attempts to demonstrate it fail. > There are many people who have cured their obesity with a little bookkeeping and self control ... David Goggins Citing David Goggins as an example of "a little bookkeeping and self control" is hilarious to me. I've read his book. I love his talks. But the guy is about as heroic and extreme as it is possible to get, and that is far from the only thing he did.
  - nradov 4y ago
    I have yet to see a type 2 diabetic who didn't eat excessive quantities of carbohydrates before developing the condition. The details of the exact causative mechanism are interesting, but largely irrelevant from a prevention perspective. My point is that David Goggins is nothing special. He isn't a superhero from the planet Krypton. Anyone can choose to do those things (or at least lesser versions of them). Some people just prefer to sit on the couch eating cookies.
unmole 4y ago
> but one would hardly say this means type 2 diabetes is fundamentally caused by eating too much. Eating too much is literally what causes type 2 diabetes.
HyperSane 4y ago
The entire purpose of fat is to store excess energy for future use because over human evolution food supply was unreliable enough for this to create an evolutionary advantage. Getting fat from eating a lot of food is completely predictable. "The idea that obesity could be avoided or cured with a little bookkeeping and self control" It absolutely can. Again people just don't want to feel bad about not having enough self control.
- yunwal 4y ago
  > It absolutely can It can’t. There are many people who, if they simply scaled down their diet without otherwise modifying their nutrient intake/lifestyle, start having health problems well before they lose weight. Hot flashes, fainting, severe stomach pains, nausea.
  - HyperSane 4y ago
    This sounds false to me. I suppose for someone used to eating 10 to 20 thousand calories per day suddenly going to 1500 would be stressful but if gently tapered no one should have any issues.
    - yunwal 4y ago
      I mean the obvious counterexample is someone who eats 1500 calories of real food and 2500 calories of junk food a day. If you scale that down by half you start getting all sorts of nutrient deficiencies well before hitting your target weight. But there are subtler versions of this. People who live in food deserts, only have access to iceberg lettuce and freezer-burned tomatoes as produce are gonna have a tough time getting all the nutrients they need in 2000 calories or less. There’s also others who have very specific dietary needs that they’re not yet aware of.
      - nindalf 4y ago
        What's the issue with iceberg lettuce?

perfecthjrjth 4y ago

Calories In Calories Out (CICO) doesn't explain obesity. You are dealing with biochemical machines (humans). CI enters this biochemical machine; here, the signal system should be effective to 'equalize'. Otherwise, you get all kinds of problems: obesity, t2d, cardiovascular events, etc. These new generation of drugs (semaglutide, tirzapatide) deal with the signaling system (endocrine signaling, that is).

HyperSane 4y ago
"Calories In Calories Out (CICO) doesn't explain obesity." Yes it does, because it is basically just repeating basic laws of thermodynamics. Obesity is actually just the body working as intended by storing the excess energy for future use during a famine. CICO is why obesity used to be very rare in past when calories were expensive and is now common when calories are very cheap and artificially delicious.
- perfecthjrjth 4y ago
  Well, two conceptions of human beings are in conflict: (a) humans are controlled by their own "will" (b) signaling system (biochemical interactions) control stuff. (a) is a cultural intuition. Now many life sciences researchers sell us a hybrid version: both (a) and (b) are true.
  - HyperSane 4y ago
    https://www.diabetes.co.uk/blog/2018/02/story-angus-barbieri-went-382-days-without-eating/ https://www.diabetes.co.uk/blog/2018/02/story-angus-barbieri...

kilgnad 4y ago

No. Absorption rates are different. Liquefied fat of the same calories translates to more fat then plant with the same calories. That's just an extreme example. The real culprit is processed foods.

HyperSane 4y ago
The difference should not be enough to be the difference from a body fat percentage of 15% to 80%.
- kilgnad 4y ago
  https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/09/why-it-was-easier-to-be-skinny-in-the-1980s/407974/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/09/why-it-wa... You don't know that.
  - HyperSane 4y ago
    I very much doubt the accuracy of calorie consumption data that article is based on. CICO is so fundamental that I would propose that the current rate of obesity is proof that average net calorie surplus has increased.
    - kilgnad 4y ago
      let's keep it to one thread. I'm ending it here.
      - HyperSane 4y ago
        https://www.diabetes.co.uk/blog/2018/02/story-angus-barbieri-went-382-days-without-eating/ https://www.diabetes.co.uk/blog/2018/02/story-angus-barbieri...