8 ms·

With very few exceptions obesity is simply the result of eating more calories than needed for a long time. Very obese people eat a LOT of food. 10,000 calories/

With very few exceptions obesity is simply the result of eating more calories than needed for a long time. Very obese people eat a LOT of food. 10,000 calories/day for years is not uncommon.

galangalalgol 4y ago
Thermodynamics obviously holds, but I'm unsure what you implication is. If it is that the obese should simply eat less, that doesn't seem terribly useful though it is completely true.
- HyperSane 4y ago
  The implication is that obesity is not a disease, it is actually the human body working as intended by storing the excess energy as fat for future use.
AdrianB1 4y ago
A friend that is a doctor specialized in metabolic problems told me that around 5% of the cases of obesity have some medical cause, not eating too much. 5% is low, but it is a lot more than "very few exceptions". (Disclaimer: the number is for Europe, I have no idea what is in US)
- HyperSane 4y ago
  All obesity is fundamentally caused by eating too much because fat contains energy that HAS to come from food.
  - swatcoder 4y ago
    Technically right is the most reliable kind of right, but in this case “too much” means that someone’s body responds differently than expected to the same amount of food. It’s true that the extra stored fat might must come from calories not used or excreted elsewhere, but that might be because their body is very poor at making immediate use of the calories as energy or is unusually efficient at storing energy that might otherwise be used. To put a number to it, a 2000 calorie diet as normally recommended may leave them depleted of energy and increasingly fat. It can take years to discover that kind of “outside the norm” issue, and obesity can easily set in before its recognized let alone addressed. And of course, once obesity does become a part of someone’s life, there’s a whole spiral of challenges that make it hard to overcome. Even moreso when your body doesn’t work normally.
  - Dove 4y ago
    Well, blood sugar contains energy that has to come from somewhere, too, but one would hardly say this means type 2 diabetes is fundamentally caused by eating too much. Shoot, tumors contain energy that has to come from somewhere... Of course, you could rightly reply that there are a lot of complicated things that happen between the food and the problem, and while those diseases require an energy surplus, that neither causes them, nor does trying to naively eliminate the energy surplus fix them. Contrary to popular wisdom, the same is true of obesity. The idea that obesity could be avoided or cured with a little bookkeeping and self control is laughable to just about anyone who has tried. Telling obese people to eat less is like telling depressed people to get over it. You'd be astonished by how ultimately impossible that is if you haven't been there.
    - nradov 4y ago
      Type 2 diabetes is fundamentally caused by eating too much of carbohydrates. Most type 2 diabetics can put the condition into remission by changing their diet. https://www.virtahealth.com/research https://www.virtahealth.com/research There are many people who have cured their obesity with a little bookkeeping and self control. Sue Reynolds and David Goggins are a couple of prominent examples, but there are many others. It's not easy, but it's certainly possible. https://suereynolds.net/book/ https://suereynolds.net/book/ https://davidgoggins.com/book/ https://davidgoggins.com/book/
      - Dove 4y ago
        > Type 2 diabetes is fundamentally caused by eating too much of carbohydrates. (Emphasis mine) Fructose, specifically, is the going theory. And I'm a big fan of Virtahealth specifically, and Dr. Fung's approach for treating type 2 diabetes generally. :) However, I'd disagree that we know that that's what causes it. We know that treats it. Cancer is not caused by a lack of chemotherapy, and I think chemotherapy is a good analogy for the fasting and low carb approach in this situation. It is a treatment, not a generally normative lifestyle. But my point is actually more limited, and you actually sort of made it for me by adding the detail about carbohydrates. To wit: just because sugar requires energy, does not mean that you got too much sugar by bringing in too much energy. It's not that simple. You won't get the disease by eating too much protein, for example (you'll get protein poisoning ;) ). You get the disease as a result of liver dysfunction, which you exacerbate and possibly cause by eating too much fructose. It's a control mechanism problem and an injury problem -- the fact that energy is involved (even required!) does not make that the central issue. Cancer requires energy for growth, but that doesn't make energy the central problem. Blood sugar requires energy for dysregulated high levels, but that doesn't make energy the central problem. Fat requires energy for dysregulated growth, but that doesn't make energy the central problem. That's something you have to demonstrate, and rigorous attempts to demonstrate it fail. > There are many people who have cured their obesity with a little bookkeeping and self control ... David Goggins Citing David Goggins as an example of "a little bookkeeping and self control" is hilarious to me. I've read his book. I love his talks. But the guy is about as heroic and extreme as it is possible to get, and that is far from the only thing he did.
  - perfecthjrjth 4y ago
    Calories In Calories Out (CICO) doesn't explain obesity. You are dealing with biochemical machines (humans). CI enters this biochemical machine; here, the signal system should be effective to 'equalize'. Otherwise, you get all kinds of problems: obesity, t2d, cardiovascular events, etc. These new generation of drugs (semaglutide, tirzapatide) deal with the signaling system (endocrine signaling, that is).
    - HyperSane 4y ago
      "Calories In Calories Out (CICO) doesn't explain obesity." Yes it does, because it is basically just repeating basic laws of thermodynamics. Obesity is actually just the body working as intended by storing the excess energy for future use during a famine. CICO is why obesity used to be very rare in past when calories were expensive and is now common when calories are very cheap and artificially delicious.
      - perfecthjrjth 4y ago
        Well, two conceptions of human beings are in conflict: (a) humans are controlled by their own "will" (b) signaling system (biochemical interactions) control stuff. (a) is a cultural intuition. Now many life sciences researchers sell us a hybrid version: both (a) and (b) are true.
        HyperSane 4y ago
        https://www.diabetes.co.uk/blog/2018/02/story-angus-barbieri-went-382-days-without-eating/ https://www.diabetes.co.uk/blog/2018/02/story-angus-barbieri...
  - kilgnad 4y ago
    No. Absorption rates are different. Liquefied fat of the same calories translates to more fat then plant with the same calories. That's just an extreme example. The real culprit is processed foods.
    - HyperSane 4y ago
      The difference should not be enough to be the difference from a body fat percentage of 15% to 80%.
      - kilgnad 4y ago
        https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/09/why-it-was-easier-to-be-skinny-in-the-1980s/407974/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/09/why-it-wa... You don't know that.
        HyperSane 4y ago
        I very much doubt the accuracy of calorie consumption data that article is based on. CICO is so fundamental that I would propose that the current rate of obesity is proof that average net calorie surplus has increased.
        kilgnad 4y ago
        let's keep it to one thread. I'm ending it here.
        HyperSane 4y ago
        https://www.diabetes.co.uk/blog/2018/02/story-angus-barbieri-went-382-days-without-eating/ https://www.diabetes.co.uk/blog/2018/02/story-angus-barbieri...
Clubber 4y ago
Do you think depression is a disease? I would argue obesity is certainly a symptom of depression in some people.
anonuser123456 4y ago
Great. Now answer why they eat that much.
- HyperSane 4y ago
  Addiction to the dopamine rush it gives them.
wincy 4y ago
I agree with you, but have a few qualifiers about it. I decided I want to lose weight for the third time in my life. A few weeks I was probably eating 5,000 calories a day. I’ve lost 15 pounds in three weeks. Basically before every day I’d eat and eat and never ever feel full. My stomach would hurt, I’d throw up every day, I felt tired and shitty every single day. Now I can barely managed to eat 1400 calories a day. I’m eating red meat and kimchi, basically. That’s my diet. Once a week I’ll crave a nice big salad with mushrooms and olives and ranch dressing. I feel great. If I try to exceed that calorie amount I’ll feel super satiated (not full, like physically full) and stop mid bite, and save the rest for later. It feels like a long dormant part of my mind that controls calorie intake suddenly has a voice again and that voice has been drowned out for years. So I mean it’s easy to say “it’s just calories”, but why when I eat a standard American diet am I craving thousands of extra calories per day and that stops when I eat like this? Even stranger, why do I relapse into these habits when I eat even a small amount of food like French fries or ice cream, over and over again? I know precisely why I’m fat, exactly what to do to lose weight, it’s not even difficult, but unless I have a very strong motivation to lose it I just don’t. Most people don’t even have the requisite knowledge of how to deal with hunger cravings and get themselves in a state where they’re losing at all. They’ll eat chicken breast and a salad with no dressing then wonder why they feel awful because they’re not getting nourishment, then binge on ice cream. So how is the average person supposed to lose weight?
eyelidlessness 4y ago
From high school through nearly all of my adult life I’ve been obese. For the last several years my weight has barely fluctuated, but it’s fluctuated between caution about being underweight and a few pounds “overweight” that barely even count. I’ve eaten almost exactly the same the whole time. The two factors which changed: - I take ADHD meds, amphetamines, which are appetite suppressants. They haven’t made me eat less, and they’ve reinforced “bad” eating habits I used to have before I lost so much weight, specifically reinforcing my tendency to eat one, large, meal per day. - I’m much more active than I used to be, because I got a pup who needs the activity and with whom I like to be active. My caloric intake is about the same as it’s always been. Once I actually paid attention to it I realized it wasn’t even very high. I very seldom reach the recommended 2000 calories diet metrics are based on. I still don’t understand how eating that way made me obese, but I have to assume now I was just absurdly sedentary. I got lectures like this about caloric intake for years and always found it interesting but confusing! How was I so fat and never eaten much? I’m not saying this applies to anyone else, but it’s bothered me for decades that I’d been told calories in -> obesity meanwhile my own caloric intake had next to nothing to do with my body mass.
- nradov 4y ago
  Odds are you are consuming more than 2000 kcal/day. Most people underestimate. Have you tried weighing and recording everything you consume for a couple weeks? Anyone who wants to lose weight should start with a resting metabolic rate test in order to establish a baseline. You just sit in a chair for a few minutes while a machine measures your inhaled and exhaled gasses to calculate energy expenditure. If you consume fewer calories than your RMR then it is impossible to not lose weight.
  - eyelidlessness 4y ago
    This is a confusing response. I do not want to lose weight. I had to pay more attention so I could stop losing weight. Your advice might be good for someone with a different problem, but (1) I don’t have that problem and (2) I addressed the problem I did have by eating more.
- 4y ago
kilgnad 4y ago
1 in 3 people in the US are obese. It is not just about eating more calories than needed for a long time. The story is much much more complicated then that given that 1 in 3 people are obese. It's like saying an overdose on heroin is simply someone doing too much heroin at a time.
- HyperSane 4y ago
  "It is not just about eating more calories than needed for a long time." Yes it is. It really is as simple as that, people just don't want to hear it. Historically food was scarce that it was nearly impossible to sustain a calorie surplus long enough to get fat. But some people did, that is why the rich used to be called "fat cats" but now calories are so cheap and delicious and lifestyles are so sedentary that it is very easy for almost anyone to sustain the caloric surplus needed to become very fat. I had a cousin who reached 650 pounds and then died. He would spend hours every day eating and almost as long shitting.
  - kilgnad 4y ago
    >Yes it is. It really is as simple as that, people just don't want to hear it. Historically food was scarce that it was nearly impossible to sustain a calorie surplus long enough to get fat. But some people did, that is why the rich used to be called "fat cats" but now calories are so cheap and delicious and lifestyles are so sedentary that it is very easy for almost anyone to sustain the caloric surplus needed to become very fat. I'm skinny so I'm unbiased. There is nothing I "don't" want to hear because I'm literally not affected by it. Thus, I assure you I have more information than you. Read below: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/09/why-it-was-easier-to-be-skinny-in-the-1980s/407974/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/09/why-it-wa... Your reasoning is on anthropological timescales, which while technically true, doesn't explain why people were still skinny in the 80s and before. There was an actual turning point AFTER the 80s... A huge shift in weight gain where MODERN and well-fed people suddenly got heavier. Something happened with the food supply starting with the US. We only have correlative studies that match a number of things with the sudden change in weight. Thus no causative confirmation on the exact source. Our educated guess says that it has to do with processed foods. Processed foods streamline calorie absorption to unnatural levels leading to unnatural weight gain. The article above mentions a number of other factors that I think are possible.

With very few exceptions obesity is simply the result of eating more calories than needed for a long time. Very obese people eat a LOT of food. 10,000 calories/day for years is not uncommon.

galangalalgol 4y ago

Thermodynamics obviously holds, but I'm unsure what you implication is. If it is that the obese should simply eat less, that doesn't seem terribly useful though it is completely true.

HyperSane 4y ago
The implication is that obesity is not a disease, it is actually the human body working as intended by storing the excess energy as fat for future use.

AdrianB1 4y ago

A friend that is a doctor specialized in metabolic problems told me that around 5% of the cases of obesity have some medical cause, not eating too much. 5% is low, but it is a lot more than "very few exceptions". (Disclaimer: the number is for Europe, I have no idea what is in US)

HyperSane 4y ago
All obesity is fundamentally caused by eating too much because fat contains energy that HAS to come from food.
- swatcoder 4y ago
  Technically right is the most reliable kind of right, but in this case “too much” means that someone’s body responds differently than expected to the same amount of food. It’s true that the extra stored fat might must come from calories not used or excreted elsewhere, but that might be because their body is very poor at making immediate use of the calories as energy or is unusually efficient at storing energy that might otherwise be used. To put a number to it, a 2000 calorie diet as normally recommended may leave them depleted of energy and increasingly fat. It can take years to discover that kind of “outside the norm” issue, and obesity can easily set in before its recognized let alone addressed. And of course, once obesity does become a part of someone’s life, there’s a whole spiral of challenges that make it hard to overcome. Even moreso when your body doesn’t work normally.
- Dove 4y ago
  Well, blood sugar contains energy that has to come from somewhere, too, but one would hardly say this means type 2 diabetes is fundamentally caused by eating too much. Shoot, tumors contain energy that has to come from somewhere... Of course, you could rightly reply that there are a lot of complicated things that happen between the food and the problem, and while those diseases require an energy surplus, that neither causes them, nor does trying to naively eliminate the energy surplus fix them. Contrary to popular wisdom, the same is true of obesity. The idea that obesity could be avoided or cured with a little bookkeeping and self control is laughable to just about anyone who has tried. Telling obese people to eat less is like telling depressed people to get over it. You'd be astonished by how ultimately impossible that is if you haven't been there.
  - nradov 4y ago
    Type 2 diabetes is fundamentally caused by eating too much of carbohydrates. Most type 2 diabetics can put the condition into remission by changing their diet. https://www.virtahealth.com/research https://www.virtahealth.com/research There are many people who have cured their obesity with a little bookkeeping and self control. Sue Reynolds and David Goggins are a couple of prominent examples, but there are many others. It's not easy, but it's certainly possible. https://suereynolds.net/book/ https://suereynolds.net/book/ https://davidgoggins.com/book/ https://davidgoggins.com/book/
    - Dove 4y ago
      > Type 2 diabetes is fundamentally caused by eating too much of carbohydrates. (Emphasis mine) Fructose, specifically, is the going theory. And I'm a big fan of Virtahealth specifically, and Dr. Fung's approach for treating type 2 diabetes generally. :) However, I'd disagree that we know that that's what causes it. We know that treats it. Cancer is not caused by a lack of chemotherapy, and I think chemotherapy is a good analogy for the fasting and low carb approach in this situation. It is a treatment, not a generally normative lifestyle. But my point is actually more limited, and you actually sort of made it for me by adding the detail about carbohydrates. To wit: just because sugar requires energy, does not mean that you got too much sugar by bringing in too much energy. It's not that simple. You won't get the disease by eating too much protein, for example (you'll get protein poisoning ;) ). You get the disease as a result of liver dysfunction, which you exacerbate and possibly cause by eating too much fructose. It's a control mechanism problem and an injury problem -- the fact that energy is involved (even required!) does not make that the central issue. Cancer requires energy for growth, but that doesn't make energy the central problem. Blood sugar requires energy for dysregulated high levels, but that doesn't make energy the central problem. Fat requires energy for dysregulated growth, but that doesn't make energy the central problem. That's something you have to demonstrate, and rigorous attempts to demonstrate it fail. > There are many people who have cured their obesity with a little bookkeeping and self control ... David Goggins Citing David Goggins as an example of "a little bookkeeping and self control" is hilarious to me. I've read his book. I love his talks. But the guy is about as heroic and extreme as it is possible to get, and that is far from the only thing he did.
- perfecthjrjth 4y ago
  Calories In Calories Out (CICO) doesn't explain obesity. You are dealing with biochemical machines (humans). CI enters this biochemical machine; here, the signal system should be effective to 'equalize'. Otherwise, you get all kinds of problems: obesity, t2d, cardiovascular events, etc. These new generation of drugs (semaglutide, tirzapatide) deal with the signaling system (endocrine signaling, that is).
  - HyperSane 4y ago
    "Calories In Calories Out (CICO) doesn't explain obesity." Yes it does, because it is basically just repeating basic laws of thermodynamics. Obesity is actually just the body working as intended by storing the excess energy for future use during a famine. CICO is why obesity used to be very rare in past when calories were expensive and is now common when calories are very cheap and artificially delicious.
    - perfecthjrjth 4y ago
      Well, two conceptions of human beings are in conflict: (a) humans are controlled by their own "will" (b) signaling system (biochemical interactions) control stuff. (a) is a cultural intuition. Now many life sciences researchers sell us a hybrid version: both (a) and (b) are true.
      - HyperSane 4y ago
        https://www.diabetes.co.uk/blog/2018/02/story-angus-barbieri-went-382-days-without-eating/ https://www.diabetes.co.uk/blog/2018/02/story-angus-barbieri...
- kilgnad 4y ago
  No. Absorption rates are different. Liquefied fat of the same calories translates to more fat then plant with the same calories. That's just an extreme example. The real culprit is processed foods.
  - HyperSane 4y ago
    The difference should not be enough to be the difference from a body fat percentage of 15% to 80%.
    - kilgnad 4y ago
      https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/09/why-it-was-easier-to-be-skinny-in-the-1980s/407974/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/09/why-it-wa... You don't know that.
      - HyperSane 4y ago
        I very much doubt the accuracy of calorie consumption data that article is based on. CICO is so fundamental that I would propose that the current rate of obesity is proof that average net calorie surplus has increased.
        kilgnad 4y ago
        let's keep it to one thread. I'm ending it here.
        HyperSane 4y ago
        https://www.diabetes.co.uk/blog/2018/02/story-angus-barbieri-went-382-days-without-eating/ https://www.diabetes.co.uk/blog/2018/02/story-angus-barbieri...

Clubber 4y ago

Do you think depression is a disease? I would argue obesity is certainly a symptom of depression in some people.

anonuser123456 4y ago

Great. Now answer why they eat that much.

HyperSane 4y ago
Addiction to the dopamine rush it gives them.

wincy 4y ago

I agree with you, but have a few qualifiers about it. I decided I want to lose weight for the third time in my life. A few weeks I was probably eating 5,000 calories a day. I’ve lost 15 pounds in three weeks. Basically before every day I’d eat and eat and never ever feel full. My stomach would hurt, I’d throw up every day, I felt tired and shitty every single day. Now I can barely managed to eat 1400 calories a day. I’m eating red meat and kimchi, basically. That’s my diet. Once a week I’ll crave a nice big salad with mushrooms and olives and ranch dressing. I feel great. If I try to exceed that calorie amount I’ll feel super satiated (not full, like physically full) and stop mid bite, and save the rest for later. It feels like a long dormant part of my mind that controls calorie intake suddenly has a voice again and that voice has been drowned out for years. So I mean it’s easy to say “it’s just calories”, but why when I eat a standard American diet am I craving thousands of extra calories per day and that stops when I eat like this? Even stranger, why do I relapse into these habits when I eat even a small amount of food like French fries or ice cream, over and over again? I know precisely why I’m fat, exactly what to do to lose weight, it’s not even difficult, but unless I have a very strong motivation to lose it I just don’t. Most people don’t even have the requisite knowledge of how to deal with hunger cravings and get themselves in a state where they’re losing at all. They’ll eat chicken breast and a salad with no dressing then wonder why they feel awful because they’re not getting nourishment, then binge on ice cream. So how is the average person supposed to lose weight?

eyelidlessness 4y ago

From high school through nearly all of my adult life I’ve been obese. For the last several years my weight has barely fluctuated, but it’s fluctuated between caution about being underweight and a few pounds “overweight” that barely even count. I’ve eaten almost exactly the same the whole time. The two factors which changed: - I take ADHD meds, amphetamines, which are appetite suppressants. They haven’t made me eat less, and they’ve reinforced “bad” eating habits I used to have before I lost so much weight, specifically reinforcing my tendency to eat one, large, meal per day. - I’m much more active than I used to be, because I got a pup who needs the activity and with whom I like to be active. My caloric intake is about the same as it’s always been. Once I actually paid attention to it I realized it wasn’t even very high. I very seldom reach the recommended 2000 calories diet metrics are based on. I still don’t understand how eating that way made me obese, but I have to assume now I was just absurdly sedentary. I got lectures like this about caloric intake for years and always found it interesting but confusing! How was I so fat and never eaten much? I’m not saying this applies to anyone else, but it’s bothered me for decades that I’d been told calories in -> obesity meanwhile my own caloric intake had next to nothing to do with my body mass.

nradov 4y ago
Odds are you are consuming more than 2000 kcal/day. Most people underestimate. Have you tried weighing and recording everything you consume for a couple weeks? Anyone who wants to lose weight should start with a resting metabolic rate test in order to establish a baseline. You just sit in a chair for a few minutes while a machine measures your inhaled and exhaled gasses to calculate energy expenditure. If you consume fewer calories than your RMR then it is impossible to not lose weight.
- eyelidlessness 4y ago
  This is a confusing response. I do not want to lose weight. I had to pay more attention so I could stop losing weight. Your advice might be good for someone with a different problem, but (1) I don’t have that problem and (2) I addressed the problem I did have by eating more.
4y ago

kilgnad 4y ago

1 in 3 people in the US are obese. It is not just about eating more calories than needed for a long time. The story is much much more complicated then that given that 1 in 3 people are obese. It's like saying an overdose on heroin is simply someone doing too much heroin at a time.

HyperSane 4y ago
"It is not just about eating more calories than needed for a long time." Yes it is. It really is as simple as that, people just don't want to hear it. Historically food was scarce that it was nearly impossible to sustain a calorie surplus long enough to get fat. But some people did, that is why the rich used to be called "fat cats" but now calories are so cheap and delicious and lifestyles are so sedentary that it is very easy for almost anyone to sustain the caloric surplus needed to become very fat. I had a cousin who reached 650 pounds and then died. He would spend hours every day eating and almost as long shitting.
- kilgnad 4y ago
  >Yes it is. It really is as simple as that, people just don't want to hear it. Historically food was scarce that it was nearly impossible to sustain a calorie surplus long enough to get fat. But some people did, that is why the rich used to be called "fat cats" but now calories are so cheap and delicious and lifestyles are so sedentary that it is very easy for almost anyone to sustain the caloric surplus needed to become very fat. I'm skinny so I'm unbiased. There is nothing I "don't" want to hear because I'm literally not affected by it. Thus, I assure you I have more information than you. Read below: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/09/why-it-was-easier-to-be-skinny-in-the-1980s/407974/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/09/why-it-wa... Your reasoning is on anthropological timescales, which while technically true, doesn't explain why people were still skinny in the 80s and before. There was an actual turning point AFTER the 80s... A huge shift in weight gain where MODERN and well-fed people suddenly got heavier. Something happened with the food supply starting with the US. We only have correlative studies that match a number of things with the sudden change in weight. Thus no causative confirmation on the exact source. Our educated guess says that it has to do with processed foods. Processed foods streamline calorie absorption to unnatural levels leading to unnatural weight gain. The article above mentions a number of other factors that I think are possible.