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PFAS is nasty, nasty, nasty stuff. There is no safe level in the human body. It is toxic in the single-digit parts per trillion. And yet, we allow them to be ad
by matt123456789 4y ago
PFAS is nasty, nasty, nasty stuff. There is no safe level in the human body. It is toxic in the single-digit parts per trillion. And yet, we allow them to be added in massive quantities to our cookware, dental floss, and clothing. EPA is currently in the process of collecting feedback for its PFAS regulation. Attend a meeting and tell them to ban this nasty toxic garbage.
https://www.epa.gov/pfas https://www.epa.gov/pfas
“Oh boo hoo I have to scrub my stainless steel pan a little harder cause I don’t have a Teflon pan any more.” You know what, when you don’t die of cancer at 60 due to lifelong PFAS exposure, you’ll thank me.
PFAS is the tobacco of our time, with deep-pocketed industry interests lobbying hard and spreading FUD about the risks. Let me be extremely clear on this point: It is toxic as hell and it will kill you dead in horrible, horrible ways.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- aintgonnatakeit 4y agoThink about all the couches and carpets sprayed with scotchguard some people have spent their entire lives exposed to. It’s terrible.
- amluto 4y agoI’d be more concerned about exposure while applying the scotchgard.
- bioemerl 4y ago> Oh boo hoo I have to scrub my stainless steel pan a little harder cause I don’t have a Teflon pan any more Please, everyone, try cast iron. It's amazing.
- npstr 4y agoCast iron is heavy and some people hate that. Try forged iron.
- alex_duf 4y agoI heard carbon steel was good middle ground, anyone tried?
- ceejayoz 4y agoMost of the benefits, much lighter weight. Highly recommend having one or two in your inventory. Serious Eats has a good review of options: https://www.seriouseats.com/best-carbon-steel-pans-7093873 https://www.seriouseats.com/best-carbon-steel-pans-7093873 (as well as seasoning guides and an overview)
- dylan604 4y ago>Highly recommend having one or two in your inventory I love how this comment implies that the average household will have more than 2 pans/skillets in their inventory let alone one or two of a specific type.
- ceejayoz 4y agoIf you're a chef with a bunch of pans, one or two of them probably should be carbon steel. If you're someone with one or two pans total, you should probably replace the one or two of those that's likely Teflon with one or two carbon steel ones.
- LazyMans 4y agoYou reminded me I need to buy one. I cook on cast and stainless. My friend swears by carbon steel.
- amluto 4y agoI want a multilayered pan: magnetic stainless steel on the bottom, then aluminum, then carbon steel. Basically a modern high quality stainless steel pan but with the top layer being carbon steel instead. This ought to combine the lower weight and superior heat distribution of a multilayered pan with a seasonable cooking surface.
- 0xbadcafebee 4y ago
- yamtaddle 4y agoI'm never, ever, ever going to be able to convince my wife cast iron is any good. This is because we have cast iron pans, and she's tried to use them, and finds them entirely terrible. Yes, we've done all the fiddly seasoning and such. I'll cook in them, but she hates the things. Tiny chance I'll be able to convert her to stainless for most things, but we're never not going to have one teflon pan for eggs and crepes and such.
- siftrics 4y agoIf you cook eggs correctly, they stick less to a cast iron pan than to a teflon pan, and they hold together better.
- lumb63 4y agoHow’s that? Got any additional info?
- yamtaddle 4y agoSeriously, the single time I've made eggs work without having a layer of stuck egg at the end, in cast iron, was on this immaculately-maintained ancient cast iron pan in an AiBnB on a Mennonite farm, and even that only worked because I cooked them in a bunch of sausage grease, probably amounting to 10x the fat I use in teflon (butter, in that case). But, I usually make scrambled, and you need tight, lowish temp control for those, which is one thing teflon really excels at (cast iron and stainless need higher temps to prevent sticking)
- lukevp 4y agoTry carbon steel, it’s much less sticky
- dahfizz 4y agoAnytime your solution to a problem is "Just exert more effort and skill and do it correctly", there is a 100% chance the general public will not adopt your solution.
- bushbaba 4y agoOr high carbon steel. Nonstick pans really aren’t a necessity for cooking.
- mtalantikite 4y agoAfter using cast iron for years, I bought a few de Buyer carbon steel pans and I love them. They're thinner and lighter than cast iron. They're more responsive to temperature. They season better than cast iron and are incredibly non-stick. They might be a bit more sensitive when it comes to care than cast iron though, and are certainly a lot more expensive. I still use my cast iron cookware for times it is appropriate, but highly recommend carbon steel as well.
- TecoAndJix 4y agoIf you're accustomed to non-stick pans like i was, there may be a learning curve using carbon steel (at least there was for me). I bought a nice set several years ago and they ended up in a box in the basement after i failed to season and wash them properly. My father in law recently dug them out, revived them, and gave us some tips. We have been successfully using them ever since! While I still enjoy using the non-stick, I found i was missing out on proper fond all these years.
- altgeek 4y agoIf you're an older adult with high ferritin levels (genetic or oterhwise), you should avoid cast iron. High ferritin has been linked with hepatic injury, cancer, and a other endocrine disorders. See https://irondisorders.org/too-much-iron/ https://irondisorders.org/too-much-iron/
- ridgeguy 4y agoThanks for this. I'm heterozygous for a hemochromatosis gene and my ferritin is elevated (although not nearly as much as if I were homozygous). I give blood every month to maintain normal ferritin levels. I'd never thought about my cast iron fry pans as a source of dietary iron. Obvious in retrospect.
- altgeek 4y agoI don't have the alleles, _but_ the test is designed for western Europeans (and specifically shows up often in people from Ireland.) There are some candidate alleles for East Asians, but nothing concrete yet from LabCorp or Quest Diagnostics. I donate blood using apheresis machines (i.e. the "2x" RBC) when possible, since I need to hoard my plasma for other another health condition.
- za3faran 4y agoAre there any health concerns with stainless steel (e.g. nickel content)?
- altgeek 4y agoMm, never heard of it... let's do some googling with pubmed... Oh good lord :facepalm: "Stainless steel cookware as a significant source of nickel, chromium, and iron" https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1514841/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1514841/ (1992) Well, my all-clad cookware _stays_ put regardless.
- Night_Thastus 4y agoToo much of a PITA honestly. Very heavy, and I can't just throw it in a dishwasher when it's dirty.
- lumb63 4y agoI don’t much care if others give themselves cancer via PFAS by lifestyle choices, as long as they’re aware. To that extent, I try to raise awareness by telling people, since a lot are not aware yet. The fact that others using PFAS impacts us all, since it is distributed into our environment and stays there an incredibly long time, is what makes this issue worth regulating. Similar goes for many other ecological issues (e.g. microplastics).
- refurb 4y agoThis is fud. Teflon is not toxic, its used in medical implants. Its made from a gas - tetrafluoroethylene. It has nothing to do with PFAS.
- marcosdumay 4y agoPFAS is used as an adherent for teflon on cookware. I have no idea if it has alternatives, but "it has nothing to do with PFAS" is not correct.
- matt123456789 4y agoTeflon (PTFE) breaks down and releases PFOA (which is a PFAS chemical) at high temperatures.
- gruez 4y ago1. Are the chemicals of heat breakdown the same as what's being described in the article? I find it strange that everything teflon related is lumped under "PFAS/PFOA", from precursor chemicals[1], the coating itself, its combustion products, to various other applications (eg. firefighting foams or paper takeout containers) 2. The "high temperatures" in this context is above the smoke point of most cooking oils. As long as you're not using it for high temperature applications (eg. searing meat), you're fine. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Fear_River#Suspended_solids https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Fear_River#Suspended_soli...
- arcticbull 4y ago
- ikekkdcjkfke 4y agoWhat's it's mechanism of action? Does it bind to something or just floats around f*cking everything up unhindered
- photochemsyn 4y agoOverall it does look like this class of chemicals should be entirely phased out, although finding materials with similar capabilities might be a bit of a challenge. Carbon fiber perhaps? https://greensciencepolicy.org/our-work/science-policy/madrid-statement/ https://greensciencepolicy.org/our-work/science-policy/madri... https://www.nrdc.org/experts/anna-reade/epa-finds-replacements-toxic-teflon-chemicals-are-also https://www.nrdc.org/experts/anna-reade/epa-finds-replacemen... > "The EPA report confirmed that GenX is associated with harmful effects on the kidney, blood, immune system, liver and development. The EPA also linked it to an elevated risk of cancer (suggestive evidence of carcinogenic potential). EPA’s proposed health threshold, called a reference dose, for GenX is in the same range as EPA’s reference dose for PFOA (0.00008 mg/kg/day for GenX versus 0.00002 mg/kg/day for PFOA)." The plastics industry is producing dishonest PR material on this issue - this one is from a site run by "The Plastics Industry Association", claiming that GenX and other 'alternatives' don't have the same health issues: > "After the removal of PFOA and PFOS, companies developed alternatives to these long-chain fluorinated substances that perform the same tasks without the same environmental or public health risks. All of these replacements are safe to use according to governmental agencies like the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and the EPA."
- sam345 4y agoI'd he interested in some facts ? And cost/ benefit discussion? I know nothing about PFAS but the above comment reads like a lobbying screed. It sounds like PFAS has been in use for a long time. The above makes it sound like people are dropping like flies left and right. There must be a reason why it's still on the market and used widely.
- zug_zug 4y agoDefinitely emotional, but overall right I think. A good place to start is the documentary "The devil we know". I think you'll come to the conclusion that what has happened here has been inexcusable.
- baliex 4y agoThis is the article [0] that inspired the (brilliant) film [1]. [0]: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/10/magazine/the-lawyer-who-became-duponts-worst-nightmare.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/10/magazine/the-lawyer-who-b... [1]: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt9071322/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt9071322/
- mschuster91 4y ago> The above makes it sound like people are dropping like flies left and right. That's the problem with carcinogens - it's hard AF to link cancers to pollutants, but e.g. airport firefighters have succeeded with these claims [1]. > There must be a reason why it's still on the market and used widely. On the part of consumers, similarly to our use of plastics, it's convenience. On the part of producers, the usual: money, bribery ehhh campaign donations and, in some cases, a lack of alternatives. [1] https://phys.org/news/2023-02-seattle-airport-legacy-pfas-chemicals.html https://phys.org/news/2023-02-seattle-airport-legacy-pfas-ch...
- ecmascript 4y agoSince it seems many of these chemicals takes hundreds if not thousands of years to break down, I think it's safe to say that the benefits of making them illegal outweighs the costs.
- 4y ago
- xwdv 4y agoIt’s nasty stuff sure, but you’re not consuming PFAS every time you cook with Teflon pans. Your pans are fine. In fact, it is actually very difficult to consume PFAS consistently in a way that will actually do long term harm. In the end you’re more likely to die of cardiac arrest from the fatty foods you cook than from PFAS cancer. Saturated fats used for non-stick cooking will clog your arteries with plaque and kill you off eventually, guaranteed. My advice, don’t worry about it and live your life.
- mschuster91 4y ago> It’s nasty stuff sure, but you’re not consuming PFAS every time you cook with Teflon pans. Your pans are fine. If you're not damaging them by using metal tools, which many people do.
- hgomersall 4y agoOr overheating the pan, which is basically unavoidable.
- xwdv 4y agoNo you would have to overheat it deliberately for a long period of time.
- hgomersall 4y agoPTFE breaks down above 250 centigrade. That's pretty normal for frying pans.
- xwdv 4y agoLet me put it this way, you can break flakes off of PTFE pans and swallow them and nothing will happen to you. They will just pass through your digestive system. You will not get some kind of cancer just from this alone. Don’t listen to the lobbyists.
- nicholasjarnold 4y ago> “Oh boo hoo I have to scrub my stainless steel pan a little harder cause I don’t have a Teflon pan any more.” Stainless steel, while typically being derided by many home cooks for being "hard to clean", is actually quite pleasant to work with if used properly. What does that mean? Well, I've discovered that it means you should start with high quality pan (I use All-Clad BD5 and Copper Core, though there are many other good options too), heat it up fully before adding anything to it, throw in some fat and wait a few seconds for it to heat sufficiently, then add your food. Keep the heat up while cooking (good pans help with this part a lot). Try it and thank me later. It changed my life. :)
- tristor 4y agoIf anyone is curious about the science behind this and why you should add the fat/oil to the pan when the pan is hot, rather than when it's cold, it is primarily around creating conditions for the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leidenfrost_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leidenfrost_effect If you do this correctly, even eggs can be prevented from sticking on stainless steel pans. The extra advantage for stainless steel is it can be cleaned back to like-new condition relatively easily and without significant concerns over /how/ you clean it. You can even use acids to clean stainless steel to polish it to a shine like vinegar or lemon juice, without damaging the metal in any significant way.
- nicholasjarnold 4y agoAh! Yes. Thank you. One thing I didn't mention is that I've seen this described by pro cooks like "you know when the pan is hot enough when water droplets don't merely boil off quickly, but instead dance around rapidly in the pan". Leidenfrost! TIL
- giraffe_lady 4y agoWhen you add the oil doesn't matter for cooking as long as you let the total pan-oil system get up to temp before you add the food. Leidenfrost is used as a quick indicator that the empty pan is the right temp, but oil doesn't do a leidenfrost effect. The advice to pre-heat the pan first is because if you forget an empty pan on the stove you get a hot pan, if you forget an oiled pan on the stove you get a grease fire. Also try out carbon steel for a more nonstick type situation. Stainless is best when you want some sticking, like for building a fond for a pan sauce. Carbon naturally seasons similarly to cast iron, but much lower maintenance because you can wash it however you want and essentially rebuild the seasoning from scratch for each use.
- cawest11 4y ago*scrub my cast iron skillet a little harder*
- Wowfunhappy 4y ago> Oh boo hoo I have to scrub my stainless steel pan a little harder cause I don’t have a Teflon pan any more. Just throw the stainless steel pan in the dishwasher. It won't be nice and shiny anymore but neither was the teflon pan.
- Arete314159 4y agoNote that even very expensive places can have this. e.g. Dublin / San Ramon in the Bay Area: https://www.ewg.org/tapwater/system.php?pws=CA0110009 https://www.ewg.org/tapwater/system.php?pws=CA0110009 Whenever I consider a town to live in, I google {town name} + {ewg}. The Environmental Working Group has water analysis for pretty much the entire country. Eye opening and terrifying.
- exabrial 4y agoYet we're all still here. Incredible we haven't exploded yet.
- cinntaile 4y agoTeflon has been used in pans for 70 years now, we should have seen all these horrible deaths by now.
- shadowgovt 4y agoIf PFAS caused people to die of cancer at 60 in general, wouldn't life expectancy be somewhere below the 77 it's at?
- throw8383833jj 4y agobut how do you avoid it completely? "Hazardous PFAS chemicals contaminate the drinking water of up to 110 million Americans and the blood of nearly every American." How on earth can I find bottled water that doesn't contain PFAS in it? and chances are it's aleady in my body.