7 ms·

Nope, they learned that stupid rules are there to be broken, just you have to be aware of the consequences and be prepared to fight and sometimes lose.

Dalewyn 4y ago
[flagged]
- onli 4y ago
  I really do not like that you continue to call these students ignorant and arrogant.
  - Dalewyn 4y ago
    Are they not? The rules clearly state "no Github", and when confronted with that fact their response is "it's stupid" and to go off on tangents about Github this and Github that. That's being ignorant of the rules, and being arrogant when you are told to abide them next time.
    - denton-scratch 4y ago
      > The rules clearly state "no Github" Did you actually read the rules? "Template engine websites, tools, and sites that generate HTML from text, markdown, or script files, such as Webs, Wix, Weebly, GitHub, Jekyll, and Replit, are NOT permitted." That rule is NOT clear; it implies that Github is forbidden specifically as a "site that generates HTML". There's no reason to interpret it as meaning that you can't even link to a service that happens to provide templating and HTML generation, and which you are actually using only as a SCCS. I would certainly interpret that rule as meaning that you can't use template engines or HTML generators. Which they didn't. I would not interpret it as meaning that you can't use anything provided by a service that ALSO supports templating and code generation. The teacher was a dick.
      - Dalewyn 4y ago
        The rule is "Template engine websites, tools, and sites that generate HTML from text, markdown, or script files ... are NOT permitted." and goes on to mention an inexhaustive list of examples which names Github among others. That is abundantly clear you cannot use Github. If you didn't read the rules, that's ignorance. If you read the rules and knowingly violate them, that's arrogance. If you unintentionally violate the rules but rebuff fair judgments as stupid, that's also arrogance. If you argue pedantics to try and find loopholes, you're an asshole. It boggles the mind why "no Github" is such a controversial point.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        richbell 4y ago
        > The rule is "Template engine websites, tools, and sites that generate HTML from text, markdown, or script files ... are NOT permitted." and goes on to mention an inexhaustive list of examples which names Github among others. > That is abundantly clear you cannot use Github. This would be like calling someone ignorant and arrogant because they were browsing hackernews at school and a clueless administrator thought it was a criminal website.
        lelanthran 4y ago
        > This would be like calling someone ignorant and arrogant because they were browsing hackernews at school and a clueless administrator thought it was a criminal website. Well if the school specifically forbid Hackernews, and mentioned it by name in the list of forbidden sites ....
        richbell 4y ago
        "Sorry, the rules clearly state that you can't browse websites that promote hacking or other criminal behaviour, like hackernews. It doesn't matter that HN isn't actually a criminal website, we must always unquestioningly follow rules."
    - dutchCourage 4y ago
      Rules are inherently subject to interpretation. I actually learned the opposite of what you're preaching in school. I struggled to shorten a report to meet requirements. A friend of mine was 10 pages over the limit and went on to win a laptop with his report. Some rules are more akin to guidelines, turns out. It's not unreasonable to interpret this instances' rule as "no templates" rather than "no GitHub".
      - Dalewyn 4y ago
        The rule is: "Template engine websites, tools, and sites that generate HTML from text, markdown, or script files ..." Followed by an inexhaustive list of examples: "such as Webs, Wix, Weebly, GitHub, Jekyll, and Replit ... " Finally closing off with a strongly emphasized: " ... are NOT permitted." No matter the interpretation, you're not supposed to use something that can automagically generate HTML, which Github absolutely is one such example. Whether you "only" use Github as a file repository is irrelevant, you are not allowed to use Github, nor all the others, nor examples not named. For what it's worth, I will point out that Rule G (permits use of "state-of-the-art web-based applications") and Rule H (permits selective use of Wordpress, Joomla, et al.) are in conflict with Rule I (this rule) because such tools and underlying tools like PHP and JavaScript are "tools that generate HTML from text, markdown, or script files". If rules should be reconsidered, they are Rules G and H.
        dutchCourage 4y ago
        Sometimes rules are poorly written, outdated or straight up mistaken. I doubt the original intent of the rule was to disallow GitHub as a collaboration tool since it's the largest coding collaboration tool out there. It's even its primary use case . Interpreting the rule as what it meant to be seems appropriate to me. The world isn't as rigid as you paint it to be. If you were to really code a website without tools capable of generating html from text you'd find yourself coding with pen and paper.
    - onli 4y ago
      They are not.
    - cxr 4y ago
      > their response is "it's stupid" You're going to need to cite a source for that one, skipper. On the (what appears at this point to be the not unreasonable) chance that you just made that up, and on the topic of what not to do: false quotes on HN. <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13602947 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13602947> <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15892014 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15892014>
      - lelanthran 4y ago
        >> their response is "it's stupid" > You're going to need to cite a source for that one, skipper. This comes pretty close: making fun of the person who enforced the rule that GitHub is not allowed: > You heard it here first folks, GitHub IS NOT the industry standard for hosting code collaboration and version control through Git, an expected tool for anyone entering the industry and a priceless skill for any aspiring developer.
        cxr 4y ago
        That's not a quote. Where can the words "it's stupid" be found? Here, let me show you a quote: > > lecturing everyone "No, you really want to have 0 risk, you fools" > On HN, please don't use quotation marks that make it look like you're quoting someone when you're not. It may seem a minor point, but we've found that it's important for clarity and respect. > Also, "lecturing everyone" is borderline name-calling, which the site guidelines ask you not to do: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. (From one of my earlier links.) See? That's how quotes work. Someone actually said those things.
        lelanthran 4y ago
        > See? That's how quotes work. See, if you're going to make fun of someone because you think that they are ignorant of some piece of tech, then people are going to point out that you're no smarter, when you were ignorant of the rules.
        4y ago
- Gibbon1 4y ago
  > You don't succeed by being ignorant and arrogant. You owe me a new keyboard son.
- samb1729 4y ago
  The students were neither ignorant nor arrogant for interpreting the rules as they did. The person who graded their submission is at fault here, and the students deserve to be told this if they’re reading these comments. Someone who doesn’t know the difference between hosting a git repo and generating a static site with GitHub is unqualified to judge this project. The real lesson for these students is that there are people in this field who don’t really know what they are doing.
  - lelanthran 4y ago
    > The person who graded their submission is at fault here, How? The competitors who adhere to the rules are necessarily disadvantaged compared to the rule-breakers. How do you now fairly judge a competition when you change the rules after the game has ended? There is no other way to resolve a breaking of a rule other than by disqualification, because if you remove that rule after the game has ended then all the other competitors have worked harder (because they avoided breaking that rule) and will be judged next to the rule-breaker who worked less. You're looking at it from the PoV of the rule-breakers, and saying "This is clearly a stupid rule". Look at it from the PoV of those competitors who had to do without github - they are saying "well, it's unfair that those people can win when we had to work harder because we did not use github". And to be even more clear: the stupidity is in complaining about a rule after the game has ended. Nowhere is this acceptable behaviour - you can complain about the rules before starting the game, you can try to get it changed, you can boycott the game, you can spread awareness ... but when you complain only when you were caught out, then that disqualification is soundly deserved.
    - samb1729 4y ago
      What unfair advantage is gained by using GitHub to store the code? A privately hosted Gitea instance would have accomplished exactly the same thing without technically breaking a rule. I would understand this point if they were leveraging Actions or something, but that isn’t mentioned so I’ll assume that is not the case. Their usage of GitHub does not appear to have been anything more than a convenient repository host.
- 63stack 4y ago
  >You succeed by being knowledgable, considerate, cooperative, and also knowing where to draw your line in the sand Very ironic that the organizers lacked all 3.
- antihero 4y ago
  There are lots of situations in life where you can't "leave for greener pastures", especially when it comes to the laws of the land.
  - FredPret 4y ago
    Laws can be changed - and failing that, there are many lands

Dalewyn 4y ago

[flagged]

onli 4y ago
I really do not like that you continue to call these students ignorant and arrogant.
- Dalewyn 4y ago
  Are they not? The rules clearly state "no Github", and when confronted with that fact their response is "it's stupid" and to go off on tangents about Github this and Github that. That's being ignorant of the rules, and being arrogant when you are told to abide them next time.
  - denton-scratch 4y ago
    > The rules clearly state "no Github" Did you actually read the rules? "Template engine websites, tools, and sites that generate HTML from text, markdown, or script files, such as Webs, Wix, Weebly, GitHub, Jekyll, and Replit, are NOT permitted." That rule is NOT clear; it implies that Github is forbidden specifically as a "site that generates HTML". There's no reason to interpret it as meaning that you can't even link to a service that happens to provide templating and HTML generation, and which you are actually using only as a SCCS. I would certainly interpret that rule as meaning that you can't use template engines or HTML generators. Which they didn't. I would not interpret it as meaning that you can't use anything provided by a service that ALSO supports templating and code generation. The teacher was a dick.
    - Dalewyn 4y ago
      The rule is "Template engine websites, tools, and sites that generate HTML from text, markdown, or script files ... are NOT permitted." and goes on to mention an inexhaustive list of examples which names Github among others. That is abundantly clear you cannot use Github. If you didn't read the rules, that's ignorance. If you read the rules and knowingly violate them, that's arrogance. If you unintentionally violate the rules but rebuff fair judgments as stupid, that's also arrogance. If you argue pedantics to try and find loopholes, you're an asshole. It boggles the mind why "no Github" is such a controversial point.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - richbell 4y ago
        > The rule is "Template engine websites, tools, and sites that generate HTML from text, markdown, or script files ... are NOT permitted." and goes on to mention an inexhaustive list of examples which names Github among others. > That is abundantly clear you cannot use Github. This would be like calling someone ignorant and arrogant because they were browsing hackernews at school and a clueless administrator thought it was a criminal website.
        lelanthran 4y ago
        > This would be like calling someone ignorant and arrogant because they were browsing hackernews at school and a clueless administrator thought it was a criminal website. Well if the school specifically forbid Hackernews, and mentioned it by name in the list of forbidden sites ....
        richbell 4y ago
        "Sorry, the rules clearly state that you can't browse websites that promote hacking or other criminal behaviour, like hackernews. It doesn't matter that HN isn't actually a criminal website, we must always unquestioningly follow rules."
  - dutchCourage 4y ago
    Rules are inherently subject to interpretation. I actually learned the opposite of what you're preaching in school. I struggled to shorten a report to meet requirements. A friend of mine was 10 pages over the limit and went on to win a laptop with his report. Some rules are more akin to guidelines, turns out. It's not unreasonable to interpret this instances' rule as "no templates" rather than "no GitHub".
    - Dalewyn 4y ago
      The rule is: "Template engine websites, tools, and sites that generate HTML from text, markdown, or script files ..." Followed by an inexhaustive list of examples: "such as Webs, Wix, Weebly, GitHub, Jekyll, and Replit ... " Finally closing off with a strongly emphasized: " ... are NOT permitted." No matter the interpretation, you're not supposed to use something that can automagically generate HTML, which Github absolutely is one such example. Whether you "only" use Github as a file repository is irrelevant, you are not allowed to use Github, nor all the others, nor examples not named. For what it's worth, I will point out that Rule G (permits use of "state-of-the-art web-based applications") and Rule H (permits selective use of Wordpress, Joomla, et al.) are in conflict with Rule I (this rule) because such tools and underlying tools like PHP and JavaScript are "tools that generate HTML from text, markdown, or script files". If rules should be reconsidered, they are Rules G and H.
      - dutchCourage 4y ago
        Sometimes rules are poorly written, outdated or straight up mistaken. I doubt the original intent of the rule was to disallow GitHub as a collaboration tool since it's the largest coding collaboration tool out there. It's even its primary use case . Interpreting the rule as what it meant to be seems appropriate to me. The world isn't as rigid as you paint it to be. If you were to really code a website without tools capable of generating html from text you'd find yourself coding with pen and paper.
  - onli 4y ago
    They are not.
  - cxr 4y ago
    > their response is "it's stupid" You're going to need to cite a source for that one, skipper. On the (what appears at this point to be the not unreasonable) chance that you just made that up, and on the topic of what not to do: false quotes on HN. <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13602947 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13602947> <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15892014 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15892014>
    - lelanthran 4y ago
      >> their response is "it's stupid" > You're going to need to cite a source for that one, skipper. This comes pretty close: making fun of the person who enforced the rule that GitHub is not allowed: > You heard it here first folks, GitHub IS NOT the industry standard for hosting code collaboration and version control through Git, an expected tool for anyone entering the industry and a priceless skill for any aspiring developer.
      - cxr 4y ago
        That's not a quote. Where can the words "it's stupid" be found? Here, let me show you a quote: > > lecturing everyone "No, you really want to have 0 risk, you fools" > On HN, please don't use quotation marks that make it look like you're quoting someone when you're not. It may seem a minor point, but we've found that it's important for clarity and respect. > Also, "lecturing everyone" is borderline name-calling, which the site guidelines ask you not to do: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. (From one of my earlier links.) See? That's how quotes work. Someone actually said those things.
        lelanthran 4y ago
        > See? That's how quotes work. See, if you're going to make fun of someone because you think that they are ignorant of some piece of tech, then people are going to point out that you're no smarter, when you were ignorant of the rules.
        4y ago
Gibbon1 4y ago
> You don't succeed by being ignorant and arrogant. You owe me a new keyboard son.
samb1729 4y ago
The students were neither ignorant nor arrogant for interpreting the rules as they did. The person who graded their submission is at fault here, and the students deserve to be told this if they’re reading these comments. Someone who doesn’t know the difference between hosting a git repo and generating a static site with GitHub is unqualified to judge this project. The real lesson for these students is that there are people in this field who don’t really know what they are doing.
- lelanthran 4y ago
  > The person who graded their submission is at fault here, How? The competitors who adhere to the rules are necessarily disadvantaged compared to the rule-breakers. How do you now fairly judge a competition when you change the rules after the game has ended? There is no other way to resolve a breaking of a rule other than by disqualification, because if you remove that rule after the game has ended then all the other competitors have worked harder (because they avoided breaking that rule) and will be judged next to the rule-breaker who worked less. You're looking at it from the PoV of the rule-breakers, and saying "This is clearly a stupid rule". Look at it from the PoV of those competitors who had to do without github - they are saying "well, it's unfair that those people can win when we had to work harder because we did not use github". And to be even more clear: the stupidity is in complaining about a rule after the game has ended. Nowhere is this acceptable behaviour - you can complain about the rules before starting the game, you can try to get it changed, you can boycott the game, you can spread awareness ... but when you complain only when you were caught out, then that disqualification is soundly deserved.
  - samb1729 4y ago
    What unfair advantage is gained by using GitHub to store the code? A privately hosted Gitea instance would have accomplished exactly the same thing without technically breaking a rule. I would understand this point if they were leveraging Actions or something, but that isn’t mentioned so I’ll assume that is not the case. Their usage of GitHub does not appear to have been anything more than a convenient repository host.
63stack 4y ago
>You succeed by being knowledgable, considerate, cooperative, and also knowing where to draw your line in the sand Very ironic that the organizers lacked all 3.
antihero 4y ago
There are lots of situations in life where you can't "leave for greener pastures", especially when it comes to the laws of the land.
- FredPret 4y ago
  Laws can be changed - and failing that, there are many lands