5 ms·

One unfortunate side effect of referral bonuses is that they don't really help increase diversity since employees are most likely to refer friends from their ex

One unfortunate side effect of referral bonuses is that they don't really help increase diversity since employees are most likely to refer friends from their existing social circles. I didn't realize that at first!

p1esk 4y ago
I personally would prefer to work with people from my social circle.
- BeetleB 4y ago
  Of course you would. That is exactly the problem.
  - p1esk 4y ago
    I am more productive (and generally happier) when working with people I like, and can relate to. Communication is better too, which is pretty important.
  - atmosx 4y ago
    Why is that a problem?
    - BeetleB 4y ago
      Imagine you keep applying for jobs and you get none because all the existing employees are recommending their friends who are inferior to you in skills, but the company is prioritizing referrals. This is, and has always been, a real problem: That your ability to get good positions is limited not by your skill set but by your ability to network.
      - deadbeefinmoon 4y ago
        You only need a laptop to set up a company in this field. If there are separate networks of different ethnities (or whatever you mean by diversity) their companies should be able to win over the ones who are not hiring based on pure skill and abilities. Does this happen?
        BeetleB 4y ago
        1. I didn't make any mention of diversity. 2. The notion that companies will win purely due to skill is questionable. I would highly recommend listening to "How I Built This". Skill is a significant factor, but companies that win do not always do so based on skill.
      - p1esk 4y ago
        Generally if you have good skills people will want to network with you, unless you're anti-social or have some other personality issues. Keep in mind that technical skills are just one component in a good coworker.
        bheadmaster 4y ago
        This comment reveals another problem - if a person is not interested in networking for the sake of it, they're slapped with the "anti-social" or "personality disorder" labels. Anecdotally, some of the best engineers I've worked with despise the networking culture and prefer to keep to themselves, while some of the most "social" and "networking" people were grifters who didn't have much skill, but knew how to appear like they do.
        BeetleB 4y ago
        > Generally if you have good skills people will want to network with you, unless you're anti-social or have some other personality issues. Not really. In my experience that is the exception rather than the rule. Especially because most people will have no way to know you have good skills if they don't already know you.
        ipaddr 4y ago
        Generally programmers don't and do not seek to network. If you are actively networking and not writing code you might be in it for the wrong reasons.
        p1esk 4y ago
        I would put it this way: in these times of massive layoffs, if you're a programmer and you don't network, you're doing it wrong. There are exceptions, e.g. for genius types, but the rest of us better be social.
- pkrotich 4y ago
  I used to believe in "culture fit" as well but it took me going to a tech conference to realize it was a codeword / gateway for alot of **isms. And I don't even mean racism - say your potential candidate is older with kids (assuming you're younger) would you pass them because they cannot go out drinking with you after work (a.k.a social circle)? That said, I agree that you want to work with people you get along with, but it has to be at work. Social circle is the issue for me.
  - p1esk 4y ago
    By "social circle" I did not mean people I go out for drinks with - I'd call those "friends". I simply meant people I have something in common with, share the same values with, people I can relate to. If the candidate is older with kids (assuming I'm younger) - he/she should be someone I want to become in the future, someone I respect, someone I'd learn from. Race, gender, age, even education - does not really matter - as long as I'm genuinely interested in that person and feel like I'd enjoy working with them. After many years of interviewing and hiring at various startups this is more important to me than technical skills. Skills could be learned, personalities usually don't change.
  - klooney 4y ago
    I feel like programmer discourse goes in a circle every five years on agreeableness/human factors when hiring. You can say "rigid process and blind hiring!" And then you hire someone you knew was, er , difficult, and it sucks and they get fired and you have to adjust. Then on the other side of the spectrum, you have grumpy people pointing out that it turns out agreeableness turns out to mean coethnic drinking buddies, and how could you?
- quickthrower2 4y ago
  I prefer to work with the best people for the job.
deadbeefinmoon 4y ago
[dead]
wobbly_bush 4y ago
Interestingly, one of the actual AIs from DEI teams is to ask for referrals from existing diverse candidates.

p1esk 4y ago

I personally would prefer to work with people from my social circle.

BeetleB 4y ago
Of course you would. That is exactly the problem.
- p1esk 4y ago
  I am more productive (and generally happier) when working with people I like, and can relate to. Communication is better too, which is pretty important.
- atmosx 4y ago
  Why is that a problem?
  - BeetleB 4y ago
    Imagine you keep applying for jobs and you get none because all the existing employees are recommending their friends who are inferior to you in skills, but the company is prioritizing referrals. This is, and has always been, a real problem: That your ability to get good positions is limited not by your skill set but by your ability to network.
    - deadbeefinmoon 4y ago
      You only need a laptop to set up a company in this field. If there are separate networks of different ethnities (or whatever you mean by diversity) their companies should be able to win over the ones who are not hiring based on pure skill and abilities. Does this happen?
      - BeetleB 4y ago
        1. I didn't make any mention of diversity. 2. The notion that companies will win purely due to skill is questionable. I would highly recommend listening to "How I Built This". Skill is a significant factor, but companies that win do not always do so based on skill.
    - p1esk 4y ago
      Generally if you have good skills people will want to network with you, unless you're anti-social or have some other personality issues. Keep in mind that technical skills are just one component in a good coworker.
      - bheadmaster 4y ago
        This comment reveals another problem - if a person is not interested in networking for the sake of it, they're slapped with the "anti-social" or "personality disorder" labels. Anecdotally, some of the best engineers I've worked with despise the networking culture and prefer to keep to themselves, while some of the most "social" and "networking" people were grifters who didn't have much skill, but knew how to appear like they do.
      - BeetleB 4y ago
        > Generally if you have good skills people will want to network with you, unless you're anti-social or have some other personality issues. Not really. In my experience that is the exception rather than the rule. Especially because most people will have no way to know you have good skills if they don't already know you.
      - ipaddr 4y ago
        Generally programmers don't and do not seek to network. If you are actively networking and not writing code you might be in it for the wrong reasons.
        p1esk 4y ago
        I would put it this way: in these times of massive layoffs, if you're a programmer and you don't network, you're doing it wrong. There are exceptions, e.g. for genius types, but the rest of us better be social.
pkrotich 4y ago
I used to believe in "culture fit" as well but it took me going to a tech conference to realize it was a codeword / gateway for alot of **isms. And I don't even mean racism - say your potential candidate is older with kids (assuming you're younger) would you pass them because they cannot go out drinking with you after work (a.k.a social circle)? That said, I agree that you want to work with people you get along with, but it has to be at work. Social circle is the issue for me.
- p1esk 4y ago
  By "social circle" I did not mean people I go out for drinks with - I'd call those "friends". I simply meant people I have something in common with, share the same values with, people I can relate to. If the candidate is older with kids (assuming I'm younger) - he/she should be someone I want to become in the future, someone I respect, someone I'd learn from. Race, gender, age, even education - does not really matter - as long as I'm genuinely interested in that person and feel like I'd enjoy working with them. After many years of interviewing and hiring at various startups this is more important to me than technical skills. Skills could be learned, personalities usually don't change.
- klooney 4y ago
  I feel like programmer discourse goes in a circle every five years on agreeableness/human factors when hiring. You can say "rigid process and blind hiring!" And then you hire someone you knew was, er , difficult, and it sucks and they get fired and you have to adjust. Then on the other side of the spectrum, you have grumpy people pointing out that it turns out agreeableness turns out to mean coethnic drinking buddies, and how could you?
quickthrower2 4y ago
I prefer to work with the best people for the job.

deadbeefinmoon 4y ago

[dead]

wobbly_bush 4y ago

Interestingly, one of the actual AIs from DEI teams is to ask for referrals from existing diverse candidates.