7 ms·

NIO reveals aggressive plan to add 1,000 swap stations in 2023

35 points by clouddrover 4y ago

snek_case 4y ago
The problem with swap stations, in addition to the large infrastructure cost, is that you need to keep your vehicles and battery packs compatible for years to come. If you have 4 different car models, you either need all 4 vehicles to use the same battery pack format, or you need to have multiple battery packs available. It might seem trivial, but it's a significant design constraint. IMO if technology progresses and we can get rapid charging times close to 10 minutes or less, battery swapping technology will become entirely moot. My prediction is that NIO will have to sink a lot of cost into this technology to build all the swapping stations and have all the spare packs available, and that will likely be its downfall. If you think I'm being silly, then please consider that NIO is the same company that invested in having yoga lessons at its dealerships[0], which seems like WeWorks-level stupidity to me. This company does not know how to deploy capital in a lean and effective manner IMO. [0] https://cnevpost.com/2022/12/17/nio-opens-first-nio-house-in-germany/ https://cnevpost.com/2022/12/17/nio-opens-first-nio-house-in...
- Spooky23 4y ago
  Totally agree. I think it makes sense for fleet vehicles though. For a truck, bus, etc, I think it makes a lot of sense to swap and go.
  - snek_case 4y ago
    I could see it for a semi truck. Another advantage there is that you don't need it to look pretty, you don't need to try to hide the battery under the truck.
    - Spooky23 4y ago
      Part of our org operates a couple of box trucks for equipment delivery and other stuff - this type of thing would be a boon to us, I’d assume the an electric truck would be like an electric car with reduced maintenance, etc. Being able to keep these things rolling and deal with battery warranty claims without downing a truck would be a real cost saver - when trucks break down it’s really expensive to either reschedule or lease short term.
    - jjoonathan 4y ago
      Can they really load so fast as to bottleneck on the current 30 minute charge times (Tesla Semi, 70% fast charge)? A swap station would need maintenance and refilling, so it's starting from behind and has to earn back its keep by eliminating latency that absolutely can't be hidden any other way.
      - bluSCALE4 4y ago
        I suppose it would feel like a dream when it actually works. I'd imagine it a lot like a car wash experience. The only thing that worries me is how the batteries are handled. Freighters are the worst and ding up everything. Imagine shipping 100s of batteries around the country? Sounds like a nightmare if they're not using specialized trucks or packing material.
        Fatnino 4y ago
        Why would they need to ship batteries all over the place? The swapped out battery gets recharged and put in the next car.
    - clouddrover 4y ago
      Truck battery swaps in Australia. Not automated but it works: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/apr/29/swap-and-go-electric-trucks-to-run-between-sydney-and-brisbane-using-exchangeable-batteries https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/apr/29/swap-...
- ChainOfFools 4y ago
  Why not let cars use model or brand specific battery storage solutions for, say, 80% of their power and a swappable reasonably sized standard form factor modular battery for the last 15-20%, just for critical drive-home, or at least drive-to-the-next-swap-station storage? It seems like something the size of a briefcase ought to be suitable for just about any format of electric vehicle aside from motorcycles, which likely would have less need for this facility anyway due to quick charging.
  - HALtheWise 4y ago
    Might as well just charge though? Even without DC fast charging, adding 15-20% charge onto an EV won't take very long, and it's a lot easier and less capital intensive to maintain a charging station than a battery swap station. For that matter, any outlet in the entire world can already function as a charger for last-minute emergencies, which is a density that dedicated infrastructure could never hope to match.
  - wongarsu 4y ago
    The first ~30% charge the fastest. A Tesla S Plaid already charges from 5 to 20% in 4 minutes [1] on a DC fast charger. 1: https://insideevs.com/news/515641/tesla-models-plaid-charging-analysis/ https://insideevs.com/news/515641/tesla-models-plaid-chargin...
    - bluSCALE4 4y ago
      That's far but what happens when these start popping up next to Tesla chargers and you're waiting in line while people I breezing through NIO stations? It's a pipe dream atm but I believe it will spark something in Tesla owners.
- jjoonathan 4y ago
  I dunno, putting exclusive clubs at chargers sounds like a good way to build premium brand image. China is big. Building a cult in China sounds like good business. Until the CCP steps on you, I suppose?
- Kuinox 4y ago
  Car plateforms are already the same between a lot of brands. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Stellantis_platforms https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Stellantis_platforms Renault tried to have a standard swappable battery but gave up due to too little industry following.
CyberDildonics 4y ago
NIO is a chinese electric car company and swap stations here means electric car battery swap stations.
reacharavindh 4y ago
Wife and I were just talking about the idea a few days ago. Swapping the entire big battery of a car seems like a big ask, and opens up issues of "swapping a brand new battery to an highly used one" etc. What I would rather like is an extendable range in EVs. Sell me a 100KM range car that I will use as-is most of the year. When I go on trips, I'd like to be able to stop the car somewhere, toss it a couple of battery modules (like filling up gas), and that should equip me to drive until next such stop in two or three hours. At the end of my trip, I could simply return the battery modules for a refund of deposit.
- jvm___ 4y ago
  All those sci-fi stories where they have to go find, buy or trade some alien species for more fuel for their ship finally come true. Picturing a small keg battery with a handle on top that has LED's on it. You insert and twist into the spot on your car to fuel it up.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- deelowe 4y ago
  I think it would be easier to simply get EVs to the point where they have over 300mi of range on a charge and build out quick charge infrastructure. Waiting 20-30 minutes to quick charge after close to 300 miles of driving doesn't really seem that big of a headache to me. That's basically equivalent to stopping for food, gas, and a bathroom break which I'd do on long trips anyways.
  - Tempest1981 4y ago
    Make it a destination, like Buc-ee's in Texas: https://sbj.net/uploads/original/20220125-114518-Bucees.jpg https://sbj.net/uploads/original/20220125-114518-Bucees.jpg
  - coffeebeqn 4y ago
    The charge stations just need a bathroom and maybe some vending machines and a waiting area. Fancier ones can be more like the big road trip gas stations you sometimes run into
pokerhobo 4y ago
Several big issues with swap stations: - charging allows for parallel charging while a swap station would allow for 1 vehicle to be swapped, so you could have a line of cars waiting to swap that would take just long or longer than charging - swap stations need full size battery packs that could otherwise be used to sell another BEV - battery degradation would upset folks who had a battery with 100% range only to be swapped for a used battery with 80% range - unless they carry different form factor battery packs, they are limiting their vehicles to same size packs basically forever, so forget about larger packs or smaller packs depending on vehicle size
- dale_glass 4y ago
  What I think is of particular concern is perverse incentives, and a race to the bottom. * Somebody with a pristine battery takes a risk by swapping. They probably won't, because they're extremely likely to get a worse one than they arrived with. * Somebody ruins their battery in some way. A battery swap lets them with a high likelihood get something better. They'll probably do that. * People doing a swap have a risk with getting something worse, and getting stuck somewhere. Every time that happens the reputation of the swap stations gets worse. * All the above results in the quality of batteries being available at the station going down and down, until the entire system collapses. What are the possible counter-measures? You could have user registration and punish people with a fine if they drop in a broken battery, but the batteries are expensive, so the fine would be large. That'd be a risky proposal.
  - flappyeagle 4y ago
    The station could test the battery and charge you/give you a credit depending on the capacity difference. Every battery would have an audit trail as well
    - dale_glass 4y ago
      A Tesla battery seems to cost around $20K per Google. So if your is at 50% life, do you get a bill for $10K? That doesn't sound like a thing a lot of people would want.
KSteffensen 4y ago
Didn't BetterPlace try to do battery swap and failed? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Place_(company) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Place_(company)
- simonebrunozzi 4y ago
  More than a dozen years ago. Perhaps things / technology have changed enough?
henkdehenker 4y ago
How many ads in your article do you want? YES!
retube 4y ago
Battery swapping seems crazy. Batteries have a wide range of values depending on performance, age, charge cycles etc. Why would I want to swap out my brand new very expensive battery for some old crusty piece of crap? Plus, they're presumably very heavy. How easy is it for the elderly / infirm to manage?
- bryanlarsen 4y ago
  You don't own your NIO batteries, you just lease them. So you don't care if they're new or old as long as they work. They aren't manually swapped, robots do all the work.
- oldgradstudent 4y ago
  But if you mistreated your battery, you'd definitely want to swap. I don't see how battery swapping doesn't result in a race to the bottom.
- mc32 4y ago
  A potential solution would be to provide "batteries as a service" when a car is bought. You'd not be paying for a battery per se but rather for the battery service with some performance guarantees where you pay a base monthly and mileage fee -or something to that effect.
- djaychela 4y ago
  The batteries are leased in this case, so aside from any other issues, that won't really be a problem. They're heavy, which is why a mechanism changes the battery. No human could swap an EV battery without mechanical assistance - they're all in the 400Kg + territory! You drive up to the station, and the machine does it for you.
mattw2121 4y ago
I'm wondering if a solution to the "I don't want a subpar battery swapped into my vehicle" problem is simply to not own the battery? What if I could be sold a car and then just lease the battery as a service? Then I just visit a swap station and don't care about the battery I receive.
- vlovich123 4y ago
  These batteries appear to be leased. https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/nio-plans-battery-leasing-and-swapping-network-europe https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/nio-plans-battery-lea...
paulkrush 4y ago
How many people here know swap stations are a mainstream normal thing for mopeds in some Chinese cities? How many people here know that in some Chinese cities there are no gas mopeds?
- jjoonathan 4y ago
  We've all seen the videos, but likewise we all know that EV batteries are on a whole different scale regarding size, weight, cost, and power. It's not at all clear what translates and what can be made to translate. The only real answer is to have multiple players place their bets and see what works.
  - paulkrush 4y ago
    I agree moped scale does not scale to cars, but it's so practical, and does or could have a place. I really think most people don't have a place in their head for e-bikes. It would scale up a little more. I have not seen normal mainstream videos of people swapping moped batteries. How do I search for such videos? I only see clearly advertising/prototypes on YouTube. I was shocked when I saw this in person. I am just going off of what I saw around the Pearl River Delta (China) cities. I will say this will not work in my area (Too cold/suburbs) It would be totally awesome on bike paths, but think this is pipe dream. It's kind of like saying they should allow jet skis in the smaller park lakes. Never going to happen.
manv1 4y ago
People swap propane tanks for their grills all the time. Compatibility isn't really that much of problem, because you know, you designed for it. It's not like they're going to be all "oh shit, the compartment only fits AAA batteries and we accidentally made it into a 9V form factor." If you've gone to a battery store lately (batteries plus), you can see that keeping track of battery inventory isn't really a hard problem. When I first heard about NIO's battery thing it sounded pretty interesting. Ideally you'd go in, get a cup of coffee, and you'd be done - in about the time it takes to fill your gas tank. You don't have to build out an electric charging infrastructure, and you can centrally charge your batteries at whatever speed you feel like. You don't have problems with recycling, and you can also directly monitor for battery issues. And since it's a service center you can keep an eye on the cars and what's happening with them. In any case, our opinions don't matter because they're doing it and have been relatively successful at it.
- lastLinkedList 4y ago
  I think the idea is good, and the economics don't immediately suggest that is impractical more than, say, the supply chain dynamics behind widespread gas stations to me. The issue is getting there, and while China has these manufacturers pushing the swap paradigm, we'll almost need someone with Tesla level deep pockets to get over the implementation hump in the US.
- latchkey 4y ago
  > People swap propane tanks for their grills all the time. Propane tanks have 10-12 year life spans.
kentlyons 4y ago
The problem with swapping is the battery is a very large portion of the residual value of the car. While functionally very different it'd be more like swapping out the engine or transmission in an ICE car. You don't want to roll in with 20k miles on the odometer and roll out with 250k miles! This is actually the same issue with using EV batteries for grid tied storage. You end up putting (many) more cycles on the battery which devalues your car.
- bryanlarsen 4y ago
  Nio batteries aren't owned, they are leased.
  - jillesvangurp 4y ago
    Exactly. You can do things like swap out a small battery for a large one when you need one. Or an empty one for a full one if you are in a hurry. The whole process only takes a few minutes. Not lugging around hundreds of kilos of batteries you don't need makes the car more efficient. Just swap in a big one when you need one. And you don't have to worry about battery life either as long as the battery is within specs, you are good to go. And if it isn't you just replace it and get another one. Makes the car cheaper to buy but probably more expensive to use. And NIO gets to re-purpose the older batteries for things like grid storage without having to wait a few years for the cars to come back.
    - dale_glass 4y ago
      You don't really want a small battery, even if you don't need the full capacity. Batteries degrade the most near their limits, so a large battery that you use a small part of most of the time will live far longer than if you had a battery with just the capacity you need. The optimal strategy is having configurable charge levels. Eg, Dell laptops allow you to tell it to only use 80% of the battery to preserve battery life when you don't need the full capacity. Then before going on a trip you change the setting and charge it fully.
      - 4y ago
barbazoo 4y ago
> Notably, NIO also equipped two LiDARs and two Nvidia Orin chips on the third-generation battery swap station, for a total computing power of 508 TOPS. Does anyone know the context of this? Seemed somewhat out of place, why would a battery swap station have particularly high computing power and what does Lidar have to do with it?
- loeg 4y ago
  Maybe they're trying to automate the swap with robots?
  - bryanlarsen 4y ago
    Yes.
  - dr-detroit 4y ago
    [dead]
Zigurd 4y ago
Battery swap appears to make sense for scooters. Taiwan moves on scooters, and Gogoro is the e-scooter leader in Taiwan. So there is a success story for battery swapping. But it took many years for Gogoro to build up a swapping "vending machine" network and for customers to gain confidence in battery swapping. OTOH almost everything - cost of batteries, no heavy lifting, unattended swap stations, etc. - is easier for scooters.
unmole 4y ago
The comments here are just wild. Battery swapping stations have been operational in multiple Asian countries for years. But somehow the HN commentariat is convinced that it's impossible.
- hadlock 4y ago
  Taiwan has battery swapping stations for their...GoRo? Electric scooters, but they are the size of a coffee can and user-swapped using the integrated handle. Battery swap on a car-sized battery is going to be... Several magnitudes of order more complex. Dropping and denting a lithium battery with the wrong chemistry could have substantial consequences.
  - bryanlarsen 4y ago
    Nio has > 1300 EV swap stations in China, and has been operating them since 2018.
Haga 4y ago
[dead]

35 points by clouddrover 4y ago

The problem with swap stations, in addition to the large infrastructure cost, is that you need to keep your vehicles and battery packs compatible for years to come. If you have 4 different car models, you either need all 4 vehicles to use the same battery pack format, or you need to have multiple battery packs available. It might seem trivial, but it's a significant design constraint. IMO if technology progresses and we can get rapid charging times close to 10 minutes or less, battery swapping technology will become entirely moot. My prediction is that NIO will have to sink a lot of cost into this technology to build all the swapping stations and have all the spare packs available, and that will likely be its downfall. If you think I'm being silly, then please consider that NIO is the same company that invested in having yoga lessons at its dealerships[0], which seems like WeWorks-level stupidity to me. This company does not know how to deploy capital in a lean and effective manner IMO. [0] https://cnevpost.com/2022/12/17/nio-opens-first-nio-house-in-germany/ https://cnevpost.com/2022/12/17/nio-opens-first-nio-house-in...

Spooky23 4y ago
Totally agree. I think it makes sense for fleet vehicles though. For a truck, bus, etc, I think it makes a lot of sense to swap and go.
- snek_case 4y ago
  I could see it for a semi truck. Another advantage there is that you don't need it to look pretty, you don't need to try to hide the battery under the truck.
  - Spooky23 4y ago
    Part of our org operates a couple of box trucks for equipment delivery and other stuff - this type of thing would be a boon to us, I’d assume the an electric truck would be like an electric car with reduced maintenance, etc. Being able to keep these things rolling and deal with battery warranty claims without downing a truck would be a real cost saver - when trucks break down it’s really expensive to either reschedule or lease short term.
  - jjoonathan 4y ago
    Can they really load so fast as to bottleneck on the current 30 minute charge times (Tesla Semi, 70% fast charge)? A swap station would need maintenance and refilling, so it's starting from behind and has to earn back its keep by eliminating latency that absolutely can't be hidden any other way.
    - bluSCALE4 4y ago
      I suppose it would feel like a dream when it actually works. I'd imagine it a lot like a car wash experience. The only thing that worries me is how the batteries are handled. Freighters are the worst and ding up everything. Imagine shipping 100s of batteries around the country? Sounds like a nightmare if they're not using specialized trucks or packing material.
      - Fatnino 4y ago
        Why would they need to ship batteries all over the place? The swapped out battery gets recharged and put in the next car.
  - clouddrover 4y ago
    Truck battery swaps in Australia. Not automated but it works: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/apr/29/swap-and-go-electric-trucks-to-run-between-sydney-and-brisbane-using-exchangeable-batteries https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/apr/29/swap-...
ChainOfFools 4y ago
Why not let cars use model or brand specific battery storage solutions for, say, 80% of their power and a swappable reasonably sized standard form factor modular battery for the last 15-20%, just for critical drive-home, or at least drive-to-the-next-swap-station storage? It seems like something the size of a briefcase ought to be suitable for just about any format of electric vehicle aside from motorcycles, which likely would have less need for this facility anyway due to quick charging.
- HALtheWise 4y ago
  Might as well just charge though? Even without DC fast charging, adding 15-20% charge onto an EV won't take very long, and it's a lot easier and less capital intensive to maintain a charging station than a battery swap station. For that matter, any outlet in the entire world can already function as a charger for last-minute emergencies, which is a density that dedicated infrastructure could never hope to match.
- wongarsu 4y ago
  The first ~30% charge the fastest. A Tesla S Plaid already charges from 5 to 20% in 4 minutes [1] on a DC fast charger. 1: https://insideevs.com/news/515641/tesla-models-plaid-charging-analysis/ https://insideevs.com/news/515641/tesla-models-plaid-chargin...
  - bluSCALE4 4y ago
    That's far but what happens when these start popping up next to Tesla chargers and you're waiting in line while people I breezing through NIO stations? It's a pipe dream atm but I believe it will spark something in Tesla owners.
jjoonathan 4y ago
I dunno, putting exclusive clubs at chargers sounds like a good way to build premium brand image. China is big. Building a cult in China sounds like good business. Until the CCP steps on you, I suppose?
Kuinox 4y ago
Car plateforms are already the same between a lot of brands. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Stellantis_platforms https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Stellantis_platforms Renault tried to have a standard swappable battery but gave up due to too little industry following.

CyberDildonics 4y ago

NIO is a chinese electric car company and swap stations here means electric car battery swap stations.

reacharavindh 4y ago

Wife and I were just talking about the idea a few days ago. Swapping the entire big battery of a car seems like a big ask, and opens up issues of "swapping a brand new battery to an highly used one" etc. What I would rather like is an extendable range in EVs. Sell me a 100KM range car that I will use as-is most of the year. When I go on trips, I'd like to be able to stop the car somewhere, toss it a couple of battery modules (like filling up gas), and that should equip me to drive until next such stop in two or three hours. At the end of my trip, I could simply return the battery modules for a refund of deposit.

jvm___ 4y ago
All those sci-fi stories where they have to go find, buy or trade some alien species for more fuel for their ship finally come true. Picturing a small keg battery with a handle on top that has LED's on it. You insert and twist into the spot on your car to fuel it up.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
deelowe 4y ago
I think it would be easier to simply get EVs to the point where they have over 300mi of range on a charge and build out quick charge infrastructure. Waiting 20-30 minutes to quick charge after close to 300 miles of driving doesn't really seem that big of a headache to me. That's basically equivalent to stopping for food, gas, and a bathroom break which I'd do on long trips anyways.
- Tempest1981 4y ago
  Make it a destination, like Buc-ee's in Texas: https://sbj.net/uploads/original/20220125-114518-Bucees.jpg https://sbj.net/uploads/original/20220125-114518-Bucees.jpg
- coffeebeqn 4y ago
  The charge stations just need a bathroom and maybe some vending machines and a waiting area. Fancier ones can be more like the big road trip gas stations you sometimes run into

pokerhobo 4y ago

Several big issues with swap stations: - charging allows for parallel charging while a swap station would allow for 1 vehicle to be swapped, so you could have a line of cars waiting to swap that would take just long or longer than charging - swap stations need full size battery packs that could otherwise be used to sell another BEV - battery degradation would upset folks who had a battery with 100% range only to be swapped for a used battery with 80% range - unless they carry different form factor battery packs, they are limiting their vehicles to same size packs basically forever, so forget about larger packs or smaller packs depending on vehicle size

dale_glass 4y ago
What I think is of particular concern is perverse incentives, and a race to the bottom. * Somebody with a pristine battery takes a risk by swapping. They probably won't, because they're extremely likely to get a worse one than they arrived with. * Somebody ruins their battery in some way. A battery swap lets them with a high likelihood get something better. They'll probably do that. * People doing a swap have a risk with getting something worse, and getting stuck somewhere. Every time that happens the reputation of the swap stations gets worse. * All the above results in the quality of batteries being available at the station going down and down, until the entire system collapses. What are the possible counter-measures? You could have user registration and punish people with a fine if they drop in a broken battery, but the batteries are expensive, so the fine would be large. That'd be a risky proposal.
- flappyeagle 4y ago
  The station could test the battery and charge you/give you a credit depending on the capacity difference. Every battery would have an audit trail as well
  - dale_glass 4y ago
    A Tesla battery seems to cost around $20K per Google. So if your is at 50% life, do you get a bill for $10K? That doesn't sound like a thing a lot of people would want.

KSteffensen 4y ago

Didn't BetterPlace try to do battery swap and failed? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Place_(company) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Place_(company)

simonebrunozzi 4y ago
More than a dozen years ago. Perhaps things / technology have changed enough?

henkdehenker 4y ago

How many ads in your article do you want? YES!

retube 4y ago

Battery swapping seems crazy. Batteries have a wide range of values depending on performance, age, charge cycles etc. Why would I want to swap out my brand new very expensive battery for some old crusty piece of crap? Plus, they're presumably very heavy. How easy is it for the elderly / infirm to manage?

bryanlarsen 4y ago
You don't own your NIO batteries, you just lease them. So you don't care if they're new or old as long as they work. They aren't manually swapped, robots do all the work.
oldgradstudent 4y ago
But if you mistreated your battery, you'd definitely want to swap. I don't see how battery swapping doesn't result in a race to the bottom.
mc32 4y ago
A potential solution would be to provide "batteries as a service" when a car is bought. You'd not be paying for a battery per se but rather for the battery service with some performance guarantees where you pay a base monthly and mileage fee -or something to that effect.
djaychela 4y ago
The batteries are leased in this case, so aside from any other issues, that won't really be a problem. They're heavy, which is why a mechanism changes the battery. No human could swap an EV battery without mechanical assistance - they're all in the 400Kg + territory! You drive up to the station, and the machine does it for you.

mattw2121 4y ago

I'm wondering if a solution to the "I don't want a subpar battery swapped into my vehicle" problem is simply to not own the battery? What if I could be sold a car and then just lease the battery as a service? Then I just visit a swap station and don't care about the battery I receive.

vlovich123 4y ago
These batteries appear to be leased. https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/nio-plans-battery-leasing-and-swapping-network-europe https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/nio-plans-battery-lea...

paulkrush 4y ago

How many people here know swap stations are a mainstream normal thing for mopeds in some Chinese cities? How many people here know that in some Chinese cities there are no gas mopeds?

jjoonathan 4y ago
We've all seen the videos, but likewise we all know that EV batteries are on a whole different scale regarding size, weight, cost, and power. It's not at all clear what translates and what can be made to translate. The only real answer is to have multiple players place their bets and see what works.
- paulkrush 4y ago
  I agree moped scale does not scale to cars, but it's so practical, and does or could have a place. I really think most people don't have a place in their head for e-bikes. It would scale up a little more. I have not seen normal mainstream videos of people swapping moped batteries. How do I search for such videos? I only see clearly advertising/prototypes on YouTube. I was shocked when I saw this in person. I am just going off of what I saw around the Pearl River Delta (China) cities. I will say this will not work in my area (Too cold/suburbs) It would be totally awesome on bike paths, but think this is pipe dream. It's kind of like saying they should allow jet skis in the smaller park lakes. Never going to happen.

manv1 4y ago

People swap propane tanks for their grills all the time. Compatibility isn't really that much of problem, because you know, you designed for it. It's not like they're going to be all "oh shit, the compartment only fits AAA batteries and we accidentally made it into a 9V form factor." If you've gone to a battery store lately (batteries plus), you can see that keeping track of battery inventory isn't really a hard problem. When I first heard about NIO's battery thing it sounded pretty interesting. Ideally you'd go in, get a cup of coffee, and you'd be done - in about the time it takes to fill your gas tank. You don't have to build out an electric charging infrastructure, and you can centrally charge your batteries at whatever speed you feel like. You don't have problems with recycling, and you can also directly monitor for battery issues. And since it's a service center you can keep an eye on the cars and what's happening with them. In any case, our opinions don't matter because they're doing it and have been relatively successful at it.

lastLinkedList 4y ago
I think the idea is good, and the economics don't immediately suggest that is impractical more than, say, the supply chain dynamics behind widespread gas stations to me. The issue is getting there, and while China has these manufacturers pushing the swap paradigm, we'll almost need someone with Tesla level deep pockets to get over the implementation hump in the US.
latchkey 4y ago
> People swap propane tanks for their grills all the time. Propane tanks have 10-12 year life spans.

kentlyons 4y ago

The problem with swapping is the battery is a very large portion of the residual value of the car. While functionally very different it'd be more like swapping out the engine or transmission in an ICE car. You don't want to roll in with 20k miles on the odometer and roll out with 250k miles! This is actually the same issue with using EV batteries for grid tied storage. You end up putting (many) more cycles on the battery which devalues your car.

bryanlarsen 4y ago
Nio batteries aren't owned, they are leased.
- jillesvangurp 4y ago
  Exactly. You can do things like swap out a small battery for a large one when you need one. Or an empty one for a full one if you are in a hurry. The whole process only takes a few minutes. Not lugging around hundreds of kilos of batteries you don't need makes the car more efficient. Just swap in a big one when you need one. And you don't have to worry about battery life either as long as the battery is within specs, you are good to go. And if it isn't you just replace it and get another one. Makes the car cheaper to buy but probably more expensive to use. And NIO gets to re-purpose the older batteries for things like grid storage without having to wait a few years for the cars to come back.
  - dale_glass 4y ago
    You don't really want a small battery, even if you don't need the full capacity. Batteries degrade the most near their limits, so a large battery that you use a small part of most of the time will live far longer than if you had a battery with just the capacity you need. The optimal strategy is having configurable charge levels. Eg, Dell laptops allow you to tell it to only use 80% of the battery to preserve battery life when you don't need the full capacity. Then before going on a trip you change the setting and charge it fully.
    - 4y ago

barbazoo 4y ago

> Notably, NIO also equipped two LiDARs and two Nvidia Orin chips on the third-generation battery swap station, for a total computing power of 508 TOPS. Does anyone know the context of this? Seemed somewhat out of place, why would a battery swap station have particularly high computing power and what does Lidar have to do with it?

loeg 4y ago
Maybe they're trying to automate the swap with robots?
- bryanlarsen 4y ago
  Yes.
- dr-detroit 4y ago
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Zigurd 4y ago

Battery swap appears to make sense for scooters. Taiwan moves on scooters, and Gogoro is the e-scooter leader in Taiwan. So there is a success story for battery swapping. But it took many years for Gogoro to build up a swapping "vending machine" network and for customers to gain confidence in battery swapping. OTOH almost everything - cost of batteries, no heavy lifting, unattended swap stations, etc. - is easier for scooters.

unmole 4y ago

The comments here are just wild. Battery swapping stations have been operational in multiple Asian countries for years. But somehow the HN commentariat is convinced that it's impossible.

hadlock 4y ago
Taiwan has battery swapping stations for their...GoRo? Electric scooters, but they are the size of a coffee can and user-swapped using the integrated handle. Battery swap on a car-sized battery is going to be... Several magnitudes of order more complex. Dropping and denting a lithium battery with the wrong chemistry could have substantial consequences.
- bryanlarsen 4y ago
  Nio has > 1300 EV swap stations in China, and has been operating them since 2018.

Haga 4y ago

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