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I am Indian-American (born into a brahmin family if that matters) and personally haven't noticed casteism, barring the occasional idiot in our communities. Havi

I am Indian-American (born into a brahmin family if that matters) and personally haven't noticed casteism, barring the occasional idiot in our communities. Having said that, we (Indian-Americans) should be open to criticism and scrutiny. We are a very successful lot - arguably the richest immigrant group in America - surely we can be secure enough to confront some of these bad things. We need to stop being defensive and touchy about such charges.

sampo 4y ago
> I am Indian-American (born into a brahmin family if that matters) and personally haven't noticed casteism With a background in the highest-ranking caste, you would of course be the least able to notice those things.
- quadrifoliate 4y ago
  You clearly know nothing about caste, because in cases where it happens, the "higher" or "middle" castes are most often the ones actively doing the discrimination. As a "higher" caste person, I have seen a great deal of this discrimination firsthand in India (both subtle and egregious [1]), and almost never among my fellow Indian immigrants in America [2]. The typical American response that I already see elsewhere in this thread is "lol this is like a white dude saying racism doesn't exist". This totally ignores the basic fact that it is not that easy to tell someone's caste, which makes it a totally different class of problem. It's kind of possible based on a combination of factors [3], but there are so many exceptions that basically unless you ask someone, you can never be sure. And therein lies the problem – the very existence of these sorts of conversations about "how you tell what caste X is?" is often the backbone of caste-based discrimination. I feel shitty even talking about how you'd tell someone's caste. And ultimately, I think that's why these kinds of measures will backfire. You are going to have a lot more Indian-Americans being curious about what caste they are when the problem could have faded into the background, with existing anti-discrimination statutes being applied to cases like the ones cited in the article. ---------------------------------------- [1] A typical subtle version is mentioning a person's caste in a conversation where's it's totally irrelevant; a US equivalent would be something like "Jim, the new software engineer started today. He's Latino." [2] A reasonable question here would be: "What changed? Why would Indian immigrants not discriminate after they come to America?" My answer is best guess is most Indians who come to the US are already likely predisposed to liberal and educated to a fairly high level. Unlike the US (where even Civil War history is still a touchy subject), specific lessons about the history of caste discrimination, statutes against it, and attempts at reparations are baked into all levels of the Indian education curriculum. Along with that, exposure to the staggeringly high diversity of America tends to dull any remaining biases that might exist. Like everything, I am sure there are exceptions. And I'm guessing that they are certainly more likely in Councilwoman Sawant's age group (she's almost 50). [3] There should be a Falsehoods American Media Perpetuates About Caste article. If I wrote it, the top two would be: a) It's always possible to tell a person's caste based on their last name, and b) It's always possible to tell a person's caste by whether or not they eat meat.
cscurmudgeon 4y ago
Should we apply this to every divide: eg shia-sunni?
- fmajid 4y ago
  Religion is already a protected category. Arguably caste falls within both religion and race categories, but it is better to make it explicit until case law and state and federal legislation catch up. In parts of the US, Catholics or Jews were not allowed to hold office well into the 1870s, so your example is not as hypothetical as you seem to think.
  - cscurmudgeon 4y ago
    This is tricky. Does US law consider Shias and Sunnis to be from different religions?
    - fmajid 4y ago
      It does not matter what religion the discriminator is, it is the act of discrimination based on a protected characteristic (in this case religion) which is illegal. Imagine a Jewish boss rejecting Jewish candidates because he does not want his company to get the reputation of being only for Jews to apply to, that would still be illegal discrimination, even if they are of the exact same religion. Before you accuse me of making up a contrived example, that was exactly why the New York Times downplayed the Holocaust during WWII despite by that time uncontrovertible evidence, because they did not want to be perceived as a Jewish news outlet engaging in special pleading: https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-new-york-times-downplayed-the-holocaust/ https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-new-york-times-downplaye...
      - cscurmudgeon 4y ago
        > It does not matter what religion the discriminator is, it is the act of discrimination based on a protected characteristic (in this case religion) which is illegal There is a nuance here. Sunni-shia is a sect rather than a religion. There is a difference between: 1. A Muslim manager rejecting a Muslim candidate (without knowing or paying attention to their sect) 2. A Sunni manager rejecting Shia candidates while hiring Sunni candidates 1 is covered by current law while 2 is not (this is why Seattle passed this ban but for castes) Your example won't apply here as the candidate won't be rejected due to being Muslim but rather being Sunni or Shia. If there were sects in play in the Judaism case, then that is an accurate parallel. This is similar to caste discrimination that applies within religions (caste is complex as multiple religions have them https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_among_South_Asian_Muslims https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_among_South_Asian...). This is out of topic: Also, shouldn't laws go beyond just discrimination? Shouldn't we legislate towards prevent violence given the past and present of Sunni-shia violence? Discrimination in jobs seem tame compared to outright violence.
LewisVerstappen 4y ago
> I am Indian-American (born into a brahmin family if that matters) and personally haven't noticed casteism Same (I'm also indian but I'm vaishya). But I have a bunch of white dudes telling me that it happens all the time! I've seen much more discrimination on other factors - mainly around what state you're from (since someone from chennai obviously has a completely different culture than someone from delhi)
pydry 4y ago
>I am Indian-American (born into a brahmin family if that matters) and personally haven't noticed casteism, barring the occasional idiot in our communities. That's the Indian equivalent of "I was born into a white family and I personally haven't noticed racism, barring the occasional idiot..."
- LewisVerstappen 4y ago
  Would be really great if you could spend 20 minutes reading up on Indian culture before lecturing us on what our issues are. I'm not saying discrimination doesn't happen. But from what I've seen, it's rarely about caste and usually about other factors (read my other comments in this thread for context)
  - wernercd 4y ago
    Obviously others know better than Indians. Thats why they have to protect and teach them where they are wrong. /s
    - vanviegen 4y ago
      Systemic injustice in a society is often harder to see from the inside.
      - ridiculous_leke 4y ago
        Caste-based discrimination is a known problem in India.
  - pydry 4y ago
    https://www.britannica.com/topic/Brahman-caste https://www.britannica.com/topic/Brahman-caste "Brahman, also spelled Brahmin, Sanskrit Brāhmaṇa (“Possessor of Brahma”), highest ranking of the four varnas, or social classes, in Hindu India. " ... did you think a quick google would confirm what you're saying? I'm confused. What you're doing is kind of like a white American lecturing an Indian about how, in spite of what they may know already, racism in the US is overblown.
fmajid 4y ago
You realize it's like a white person saying they've never witnessed a case of anti-black racism. It is the people on the receiving end who notice, and indeed cannot help but notice.
- bobosha 4y ago
  You do realize, that I am calling for scrutiny and banishing the scourge of casteism. It might very well exist, but our communities should be introspective and self-aware on how widespread this phenomenon is, instead of getting defensive.
  - fmajid 4y ago
    Literally the first thing you wrote in your comment is dismissive of the existence of the problem.
    - beepbooptheory 4y ago
      But then your supposed to finish reading it, and have some charity in your interpretation. The gp implicitly recognizes their epistemic bias by affirming they should be open to scrutiny.
      - hellojesus 4y ago
        This is extremely important. One should take a good faith approach during a discussion. I see the opposite happening far too frequently these days, and it makes having productive conversations neigh impossible.
    - adql 4y ago
      Sometimes, when you read a sentence to the end, the meaning changes. You should try that sometimes
    - ridiculous_leke 4y ago
      That's the reason why things should not be taken out of context. It's not like every Indian on the planet is a witness to casteism.
Waterluvian 4y ago
> We need to stop being defensive and touchy about such charges. I think it’s a human trait in general. People often don’t handle when a piece of their culture is by and large rejected as backwards and wrong. Often a lot of doubling down happens and you end up with some really nasty fringe groups. Often people evolve and adapt and it’s a success story.
rwmj 4y ago
Knowing nothing at all about this topic, I have a very basic question: How do people find out about the caste of another person? I mean, for example, is it because of the family name? Or dialect/accent? (I'd know if someone grew up in Liverpool as soon as they spoke)
- prasadjoglekar 4y ago
  Usually the last name is a giveaway. That said, last names are very regional in India, so someone from north India can pretty much instantly infer the caste of another north Indian, but that person would have difficulty doing the same with a south Indian last name.
  - geocrasher 4y ago
    Hi, just your average American here, please forgive my lack of understanding. I was under the impression that the system of using a father's first name as a son or daughter's last name was intended to disrupt caste identification by name. Is this not the case? I'm asking genuinely. I have worked with a lot of people from India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh and it's been something I have struggled to understand.
    - torvaldnom 4y ago
      I'm a Hindu and I have never heard of the system you described. All Hindus I know of inherit their father's LAST name, not their first name.
      - plinkplonk 4y ago
        Tamil Brahmins usually use the father's first name as the last name for the child. so wheras in the North, you'd have Narayan Sharma's son being named Vishal Sharma, in Tamil Nadu Sriram Narayan's son would be Vishal Sriram. So yes, the system does exist Due Disclosure: South Indian, not a Brahmin, but I have many friends whose names follow this system.
stackedinserter 4y ago
[flagged]
- wnolens 4y ago
  Exhausting because they work so diligently that it's difficult to keep up with?
  - stackedinserter 4y ago
    It's sarcasm, right?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- dang 4y ago
  Slurs like this will get you banned here. Please don't do it again. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
moneywoes 4y ago
Helps to be from the top caste…
badcppdev 4y ago
Hi. Would you use the phrase lower-caste? Do you think a potential change would be to stop using that phrase?
rajup 4y ago
I personally don’t mind any amount of criticism and scrutiny if it means an end to the evil scourge that is casteism. However what I do mind is when this criticism is mixed with religion and culture bashing (in this case Hinduism) by ill-informed people who read hot takes on the news. Case in hand, the Seattle ordinance. The councilwoman proposing the ordinance went to great lengths to assure people that it doesn’t target a single religion and yet here’s a BBC article[0] that manages to convey an extraordinary amount of misinformation in one line on the third paragraph. This is exactly what people were concerned about and exactly what is playing out. [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64727735 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64727735 Edit: Text from the article “ The caste system in India dates back over 3,000 years and divides Hindu society into rigid hierarchical groups.” There are many flaws with this statement but Hacker News is probably not the best place for history lessons.
- fmajid 4y ago
  The caste system exists outside India. In Japan, people who were falconers, butchers, leather workers and other "ignoble" or "cruel" professions under Buddhism were branded as untouchables, burakumin in Japanese, sometimes also eta or hinin, literally meaning "subhuman". Somehow the lord who employed the falconer was not cruel or ignoble, funny how things work out...
  - rajup 4y ago
    Exactly, but note how everyone associates the word “caste” with “Hindu” or “india”. Makes the problem worse and nothing good can come out of it.
    - 22SAS 4y ago
      The issue is that Americans with half-baked knowledge think that all Indians have a caste assigned to them, or that India has a national level caste allocation policy. For Americans who hate India, this gives them more ammo to hate us.

sampo 4y ago

> I am Indian-American (born into a brahmin family if that matters) and personally haven't noticed casteism With a background in the highest-ranking caste, you would of course be the least able to notice those things.

quadrifoliate 4y ago
You clearly know nothing about caste, because in cases where it happens, the "higher" or "middle" castes are most often the ones actively doing the discrimination. As a "higher" caste person, I have seen a great deal of this discrimination firsthand in India (both subtle and egregious [1]), and almost never among my fellow Indian immigrants in America [2]. The typical American response that I already see elsewhere in this thread is "lol this is like a white dude saying racism doesn't exist". This totally ignores the basic fact that it is not that easy to tell someone's caste, which makes it a totally different class of problem. It's kind of possible based on a combination of factors [3], but there are so many exceptions that basically unless you ask someone, you can never be sure. And therein lies the problem – the very existence of these sorts of conversations about "how you tell what caste X is?" is often the backbone of caste-based discrimination. I feel shitty even talking about how you'd tell someone's caste. And ultimately, I think that's why these kinds of measures will backfire. You are going to have a lot more Indian-Americans being curious about what caste they are when the problem could have faded into the background, with existing anti-discrimination statutes being applied to cases like the ones cited in the article. ---------------------------------------- [1] A typical subtle version is mentioning a person's caste in a conversation where's it's totally irrelevant; a US equivalent would be something like "Jim, the new software engineer started today. He's Latino." [2] A reasonable question here would be: "What changed? Why would Indian immigrants not discriminate after they come to America?" My answer is best guess is most Indians who come to the US are already likely predisposed to liberal and educated to a fairly high level. Unlike the US (where even Civil War history is still a touchy subject), specific lessons about the history of caste discrimination, statutes against it, and attempts at reparations are baked into all levels of the Indian education curriculum. Along with that, exposure to the staggeringly high diversity of America tends to dull any remaining biases that might exist. Like everything, I am sure there are exceptions. And I'm guessing that they are certainly more likely in Councilwoman Sawant's age group (she's almost 50). [3] There should be a Falsehoods American Media Perpetuates About Caste article. If I wrote it, the top two would be: a) It's always possible to tell a person's caste based on their last name, and b) It's always possible to tell a person's caste by whether or not they eat meat.

cscurmudgeon 4y ago

Should we apply this to every divide: eg shia-sunni?

fmajid 4y ago
Religion is already a protected category. Arguably caste falls within both religion and race categories, but it is better to make it explicit until case law and state and federal legislation catch up. In parts of the US, Catholics or Jews were not allowed to hold office well into the 1870s, so your example is not as hypothetical as you seem to think.
- cscurmudgeon 4y ago
  This is tricky. Does US law consider Shias and Sunnis to be from different religions?
  - fmajid 4y ago
    It does not matter what religion the discriminator is, it is the act of discrimination based on a protected characteristic (in this case religion) which is illegal. Imagine a Jewish boss rejecting Jewish candidates because he does not want his company to get the reputation of being only for Jews to apply to, that would still be illegal discrimination, even if they are of the exact same religion. Before you accuse me of making up a contrived example, that was exactly why the New York Times downplayed the Holocaust during WWII despite by that time uncontrovertible evidence, because they did not want to be perceived as a Jewish news outlet engaging in special pleading: https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-new-york-times-downplayed-the-holocaust/ https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-new-york-times-downplaye...
    - cscurmudgeon 4y ago
      > It does not matter what religion the discriminator is, it is the act of discrimination based on a protected characteristic (in this case religion) which is illegal There is a nuance here. Sunni-shia is a sect rather than a religion. There is a difference between: 1. A Muslim manager rejecting a Muslim candidate (without knowing or paying attention to their sect) 2. A Sunni manager rejecting Shia candidates while hiring Sunni candidates 1 is covered by current law while 2 is not (this is why Seattle passed this ban but for castes) Your example won't apply here as the candidate won't be rejected due to being Muslim but rather being Sunni or Shia. If there were sects in play in the Judaism case, then that is an accurate parallel. This is similar to caste discrimination that applies within religions (caste is complex as multiple religions have them https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_among_South_Asian_Muslims https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_among_South_Asian...). This is out of topic: Also, shouldn't laws go beyond just discrimination? Shouldn't we legislate towards prevent violence given the past and present of Sunni-shia violence? Discrimination in jobs seem tame compared to outright violence.

LewisVerstappen 4y ago

> I am Indian-American (born into a brahmin family if that matters) and personally haven't noticed casteism Same (I'm also indian but I'm vaishya). But I have a bunch of white dudes telling me that it happens all the time! I've seen much more discrimination on other factors - mainly around what state you're from (since someone from chennai obviously has a completely different culture than someone from delhi)

pydry 4y ago

>I am Indian-American (born into a brahmin family if that matters) and personally haven't noticed casteism, barring the occasional idiot in our communities. That's the Indian equivalent of "I was born into a white family and I personally haven't noticed racism, barring the occasional idiot..."

LewisVerstappen 4y ago
Would be really great if you could spend 20 minutes reading up on Indian culture before lecturing us on what our issues are. I'm not saying discrimination doesn't happen. But from what I've seen, it's rarely about caste and usually about other factors (read my other comments in this thread for context)
- wernercd 4y ago
  Obviously others know better than Indians. Thats why they have to protect and teach them where they are wrong. /s
  - vanviegen 4y ago
    Systemic injustice in a society is often harder to see from the inside.
    - ridiculous_leke 4y ago
      Caste-based discrimination is a known problem in India.
- pydry 4y ago
  https://www.britannica.com/topic/Brahman-caste https://www.britannica.com/topic/Brahman-caste "Brahman, also spelled Brahmin, Sanskrit Brāhmaṇa (“Possessor of Brahma”), highest ranking of the four varnas, or social classes, in Hindu India. " ... did you think a quick google would confirm what you're saying? I'm confused. What you're doing is kind of like a white American lecturing an Indian about how, in spite of what they may know already, racism in the US is overblown.

fmajid 4y ago

You realize it's like a white person saying they've never witnessed a case of anti-black racism. It is the people on the receiving end who notice, and indeed cannot help but notice.

bobosha 4y ago
You do realize, that I am calling for scrutiny and banishing the scourge of casteism. It might very well exist, but our communities should be introspective and self-aware on how widespread this phenomenon is, instead of getting defensive.
- fmajid 4y ago
  Literally the first thing you wrote in your comment is dismissive of the existence of the problem.
  - beepbooptheory 4y ago
    But then your supposed to finish reading it, and have some charity in your interpretation. The gp implicitly recognizes their epistemic bias by affirming they should be open to scrutiny.
    - hellojesus 4y ago
      This is extremely important. One should take a good faith approach during a discussion. I see the opposite happening far too frequently these days, and it makes having productive conversations neigh impossible.
  - adql 4y ago
    Sometimes, when you read a sentence to the end, the meaning changes. You should try that sometimes
  - ridiculous_leke 4y ago
    That's the reason why things should not be taken out of context. It's not like every Indian on the planet is a witness to casteism.

Waterluvian 4y ago

> We need to stop being defensive and touchy about such charges. I think it’s a human trait in general. People often don’t handle when a piece of their culture is by and large rejected as backwards and wrong. Often a lot of doubling down happens and you end up with some really nasty fringe groups. Often people evolve and adapt and it’s a success story.

rwmj 4y ago

Knowing nothing at all about this topic, I have a very basic question: How do people find out about the caste of another person? I mean, for example, is it because of the family name? Or dialect/accent? (I'd know if someone grew up in Liverpool as soon as they spoke)

prasadjoglekar 4y ago
Usually the last name is a giveaway. That said, last names are very regional in India, so someone from north India can pretty much instantly infer the caste of another north Indian, but that person would have difficulty doing the same with a south Indian last name.
- geocrasher 4y ago
  Hi, just your average American here, please forgive my lack of understanding. I was under the impression that the system of using a father's first name as a son or daughter's last name was intended to disrupt caste identification by name. Is this not the case? I'm asking genuinely. I have worked with a lot of people from India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh and it's been something I have struggled to understand.
  - torvaldnom 4y ago
    I'm a Hindu and I have never heard of the system you described. All Hindus I know of inherit their father's LAST name, not their first name.
    - plinkplonk 4y ago
      Tamil Brahmins usually use the father's first name as the last name for the child. so wheras in the North, you'd have Narayan Sharma's son being named Vishal Sharma, in Tamil Nadu Sriram Narayan's son would be Vishal Sriram. So yes, the system does exist Due Disclosure: South Indian, not a Brahmin, but I have many friends whose names follow this system.

stackedinserter 4y ago

[flagged]

wnolens 4y ago
Exhausting because they work so diligently that it's difficult to keep up with?
- stackedinserter 4y ago
  It's sarcasm, right?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
dang 4y ago
Slurs like this will get you banned here. Please don't do it again. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

moneywoes 4y ago

Helps to be from the top caste…

badcppdev 4y ago

Hi. Would you use the phrase lower-caste? Do you think a potential change would be to stop using that phrase?

rajup 4y ago

I personally don’t mind any amount of criticism and scrutiny if it means an end to the evil scourge that is casteism. However what I do mind is when this criticism is mixed with religion and culture bashing (in this case Hinduism) by ill-informed people who read hot takes on the news. Case in hand, the Seattle ordinance. The councilwoman proposing the ordinance went to great lengths to assure people that it doesn’t target a single religion and yet here’s a BBC article[0] that manages to convey an extraordinary amount of misinformation in one line on the third paragraph. This is exactly what people were concerned about and exactly what is playing out. [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64727735 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64727735 Edit: Text from the article “ The caste system in India dates back over 3,000 years and divides Hindu society into rigid hierarchical groups.” There are many flaws with this statement but Hacker News is probably not the best place for history lessons.

fmajid 4y ago
The caste system exists outside India. In Japan, people who were falconers, butchers, leather workers and other "ignoble" or "cruel" professions under Buddhism were branded as untouchables, burakumin in Japanese, sometimes also eta or hinin, literally meaning "subhuman". Somehow the lord who employed the falconer was not cruel or ignoble, funny how things work out...
- rajup 4y ago
  Exactly, but note how everyone associates the word “caste” with “Hindu” or “india”. Makes the problem worse and nothing good can come out of it.
  - 22SAS 4y ago
    The issue is that Americans with half-baked knowledge think that all Indians have a caste assigned to them, or that India has a national level caste allocation policy. For Americans who hate India, this gives them more ammo to hate us.