13 ms·

Can someone explain to me, what is the recovery process if I lose my phone when all my accounts are passkeyed? Just create new accounts on everything, full new

by donatj 4y ago

Can someone explain to me, what is the recovery process if I lose my phone when all my accounts are passkeyed? Just create new accounts on everything, full new digital life? A couple years ago I broke my phone and was unable to access my gmail account thanks to 2FA. This seems like that nightmare scenario on steroids. Roughly half of new phones are purchased because the previous one was broken.

TacticalCoder 4y ago
> This seems like that nightmare scenario on steroids. I'm an oddball in that I'm using a U2F (for SSH) / webauthn (Google, domain name registrar, etc.) device on which the master key can be reset. It's a tradeoff: I now better make sure nobody steals my "paper seed" in the real world and I better make sure I don't lose it [1]. But in exchange should I lose/break/someone steal my device (which is protected by a PIN btw), I can initialize a new one. Now there are schemes (like m out of n) where you can distribute, say, part of the paper seed to several siblings/family members/friends or store a part in the safe at the bank, etc. Making it highly unlikely you'll ever lose access to your master paper seed (which is a list of 12, 18 or 24 words out of a vocabulary of 2048 words). As a bonus the device has a tiny screen which tells you if you're registering to a new service or authenticating and tells you the name (if it's a known service, hardcoded in the device) and/or ID of the service you're authenticating too. It is protected by a PIN. It has a plausible deniability feature where you can unlock a fake master key. And I can buy as many of them as I want and initialize them all with the same seed and then hand them to family members/friends/put one in the safe at the bank. They're all protected by a PIN anyway. So if my house burns down, I'm not sorry out of luck: I can be back in business immediately (i.e. without needing to order one, wait for it to arrive, then find back my paper seed and reinitialize it). Originally it's a cryptocurrency hardware device but I don't care about that. The CTO of that company was part of the original FIDO alliance. The device I use is a Ledger Nano S (cost $79 bucks or so) and I load one "nano app" on it, the "U2F" one (works for SSH and works for webauthn). Now I don't know exactly what's going to happen now that Google, Microsoft and Apple are teaming up to embrace FIDO2 with their new "passkeys" standard (which AFAIU ain't 100% finalized yet). From the testing I did it looks like Google removed the "counter" verification from their site, which allowed to detect cloned security keys. They used to check for clones, but don't anymore (or at least don't warn the user anymore). I'm nearly sure this removal of clone detection is related to the upcoming "passkeys" thinggy. I don't know if the older U2F devices (which are compatible with Webauthn as Webauthn is only a server side protocol change) shall still be usable once the "passkeys" is finalized: if anybody has infos on this, I'm all ears. Meanwhile SSH since 8.2 can use all U2F keys (including the Ledger Nano S) and that is a godsend already. [1] although if I realize I lost my "paper seed" and I still happen to have my FIDO2 device (or any cloned one I prepared in advance), I can enroll a new device so I'm not totally screwed. And I'll had that many people using a security key that cannot be clone do still use "backup codes" they write down on a piece of paper, which is not safer than writing down a list of words allowing to reinitialize a FIDO2 device.
pabs3 4y ago
Phones don't act as authenticators for FIDO2 yet AFAIK. You usually have either a separate hardware dongle or the OS implements passkeys (WebAuthn in software), which are cloud synced. The way to deal with losing an authenticator is you have multiple of them, including several backups, one in your home safe, one at your friend's place etc.
- lll-o-lll 4y ago
  No, they do now. Both iOS and Android have full support. Look up “passkey” for more info. Basically, google, apple, MS, etc etc are all supporting this tech now. The recovery process is defined for both Apple and google, as is the device transfer process. Here’s a google post explaining their recovery process: https://security.googleblog.com/2022/10/SecurityofPasskeysintheGooglePasswordManager.html?m=1 https://security.googleblog.com/2022/10/SecurityofPasskeysin...
- timwis 4y ago
  But then you have to make sure you're home when you setup any new online account (so you can go into your safe and add your backup key to it), or remember to do so when you get home :/
- saltcured 4y ago
  This new passkey stuff adds use of your phone as an authenticator with a laptop or other system via bluetooth with (unfortunate) cloud-mediation. Before that, some phones could already offer their embedded security chip as a U2F authenticator with the browser app. E.g. I setup the Titan chip in my Pixel 5a as another authenticator with a Google account. But, it only works with a browser on the phone itself. Since the phone browser can also access a Yubikey, I could use the Titan chip to enroll a new Yubikey or vice versa. I do wish there was a standalone "security key" USB mode I could select alongside file transfer, picture transfer, tethering, or charge-only. Then, I could more reasonably use the phone's embedded security chip as a redundant U2F key for many different services I would normally only access from a PC.
viraptor 4y ago
https://sixcolors.com/link/2022/06/how-do-you-recover-passkeys-if-you-lose-all-your-devices/ https://sixcolors.com/link/2022/06/how-do-you-recover-passke... But it's similar to other 2FA methods. First you can use alternative 2FA. When you don't have any more, you can use your recovery codes. If you don't have those, you have to rely on wetware - call support, prove your access in some other way. The last step may not exist for free services...
- donatj 4y ago
  > After the tenth failed attempt, the escrow record is destroyed. This reads like literal nightmare fuel. Something out of a dystopian sci-fi novel. You get ten attempts to remember your PIN or your entire life will be utterly destroyed. You are locked out of society. Also, what about if I break my iPhone and buy an Android[1]? Just SOL? That seems pretty anticompetitive 1. https://twitter.com/zinko45712997/status/1624766001987604482?s=61&t=D07us2vbRtvSjlsSFE6fPQ https://twitter.com/zinko45712997/status/1624766001987604482... - Quick Twitter search shows this already happening
  - chinaman425 4y ago
    [dead]
- LelouBil 4y ago
  That's why I backup my password Manager's encrypted vault to a paid file storage (AWS S3) If anything catastrophic happens I know I'll be able to recover access as I'm a paying customer.
  - makeitdouble 4y ago
    How much support do you actually get ? Tried once to see what access to a human I had with a personal GCP account billed a few hundred bucks every months, and the answer was “not much”, except for specific technical categories defined in the contact form.
    - 4y ago
alwayslikethis 4y ago
I don't get the need to rely on hardware passkeys. I prefer password managers. I guess I can accept using hardware keys as a fast means to access my password managers, but I will not rely on them. The only thing that no one can take from you is the things in your brain. I have a number of 10 character alphanumeric random passwords memorized, and I can use one of them as a master for a password manager, which is backed up in a bunch of places, so I don't lose it while maintaining good security.
- snowstormsun 4y ago
  A strong password can still be phished. Hardware keys are not vulnerable to phishing.
  - px43 4y ago
    Not just phishing, server side attacks can hoover up passwords all day long. Also XSS can extract passwords from password managers, etc. Passwords are dumb. The static/symmetric nature of passwords makes authentication fully transitive, where if A can be tricked into logging into system B, then an attacker on system B can use A's credentials to log in to system C. This is fundamentally broken. We've had asymmetric authentication for nearly 30 years now, it's insane that people are still using passwords to authenticate to stuff.
    - mschuster91 4y ago
      > We've had asymmetric authentication for nearly 30 years now, it's insane that people are still using passwords to authenticate to stuff. The thing is, anything but passwords is extremely challenging for non-tech users. Even SMS-based 2FA is too much for tech illiterate people. You do not want to be the support staff for a service that has 2FA enabled. It's utter madness - people lose their 2FA devices, get them stolen, drop them in water, run over it with their cars, have them eaten by your pets (Yubikeys seem to have a particular attraction to cats and dogs as toys), forget them at home before a vacation, of course no one prints out their 2FA recovery codes... and then there are the scammers who pretend one of these events has happened and the account needs to be unlocked, or those who fell victim to a phishing scam and now 2FA is under the control of the attacker.
jbverschoor 4y ago
I’m also not sure how I can use the same authentication on chrome and safari on the same device.
zokier 4y ago
Yubico explicitly recommends spare keys https://www.yubico.com/spare/ https://www.yubico.com/spare/
- kencausey 4y ago
  While I don't deny that this a good and perhaps even the best solution I'm sure Yubico is happy with a solution that effectively doubles their sales.
- BoppreH 4y ago
  I really dislike the spare key solution. It forces users to either carry both keys with them all the time (and risk losing them together), or introduces massive friction into the account creation (have to fetch the spare key from whatever safe or friends house you store it in). I don't understand why better solutions are not considered. Why not derive keys deterministically, so that you only have to backup the seed (a lá SQRL)? Or encrypt the new account with a public key, and store the private key in a safe. To me, "use a spare key" is on the same level of unpractical advice as "just memorize long unique passwords".
  - BiteCode_dev 4y ago
    I have 3 keys. One on my keychain in my pocket, on in my bagpack, on at home. The chance of loosing all of them are really slim.
    - BoppreH 4y ago
      > The chance of loosing all of them are really slim. True, but you sacrificed some safety for that. If you're not home, you can only create accounts protected by the keys in your person, and you're one robber (or fall into a pool) away from losing those accounts. I'd never accept a password manager with such limited sync, and those are usually free. Paying for three hardware keys and still having such limitations is beyond me. I'm all for hardware keys, and I'd love to use them to replace all my passwords, but I still wouldn't call your setup "adequate" in terms of either cost, friction, or safety.
simonmales 4y ago
Trezor (cryptocurrency hardware wallet, and my employer) also supports U2F and FIDO. If you use Trezor for FIDO, you can re-create it using the same recovery/seed phrase to re-create your lost Trezor.
- candiddevmike 4y ago
  Sounds like a password with extra steps
  - vel0city 4y ago
    Its a seed value to generate a private key. So its like a password in the same way an SSH private key is a password.
ensignavenger 4y ago
Google provides backup keys you can print out and place in a safe. I find that to be the best solution generally. I also think there is room for different methods for different services. For work accounts, I can contact my boss and have them ship me a new hardware token if necessary- losing only a day or two worth of access (It is even possible for the company to temporarily remove the Hardware Token requirement- or to allow me to enroll a Hardware Token I can purchase locally if necessary). That may work okay for a bank account too- where the bank can verify my identity. For services with not human interaction, pre-generated backup codes seem the most sensible to me.
- ievans 4y ago
  I was relying on backup codes until I recently learned (via a PSA on HN) that you should actually backup the TOTP QR codes and not rely on the 2fa backup codes because they may not provide the same level of access. Specifically, the HN post claim was that using a backup 2FA code to get into your Google account won’t allow you to add a new authenticator app.

by donatj 4y ago

TacticalCoder 4y ago

> This seems like that nightmare scenario on steroids. I'm an oddball in that I'm using a U2F (for SSH) / webauthn (Google, domain name registrar, etc.) device on which the master key can be reset. It's a tradeoff: I now better make sure nobody steals my "paper seed" in the real world and I better make sure I don't lose it [1]. But in exchange should I lose/break/someone steal my device (which is protected by a PIN btw), I can initialize a new one. Now there are schemes (like m out of n) where you can distribute, say, part of the paper seed to several siblings/family members/friends or store a part in the safe at the bank, etc. Making it highly unlikely you'll ever lose access to your master paper seed (which is a list of 12, 18 or 24 words out of a vocabulary of 2048 words). As a bonus the device has a tiny screen which tells you if you're registering to a new service or authenticating and tells you the name (if it's a known service, hardcoded in the device) and/or ID of the service you're authenticating too. It is protected by a PIN. It has a plausible deniability feature where you can unlock a fake master key. And I can buy as many of them as I want and initialize them all with the same seed and then hand them to family members/friends/put one in the safe at the bank. They're all protected by a PIN anyway. So if my house burns down, I'm not sorry out of luck: I can be back in business immediately (i.e. without needing to order one, wait for it to arrive, then find back my paper seed and reinitialize it). Originally it's a cryptocurrency hardware device but I don't care about that. The CTO of that company was part of the original FIDO alliance. The device I use is a Ledger Nano S (cost $79 bucks or so) and I load one "nano app" on it, the "U2F" one (works for SSH and works for webauthn). Now I don't know exactly what's going to happen now that Google, Microsoft and Apple are teaming up to embrace FIDO2 with their new "passkeys" standard (which AFAIU ain't 100% finalized yet). From the testing I did it looks like Google removed the "counter" verification from their site, which allowed to detect cloned security keys. They used to check for clones, but don't anymore (or at least don't warn the user anymore). I'm nearly sure this removal of clone detection is related to the upcoming "passkeys" thinggy. I don't know if the older U2F devices (which are compatible with Webauthn as Webauthn is only a server side protocol change) shall still be usable once the "passkeys" is finalized: if anybody has infos on this, I'm all ears. Meanwhile SSH since 8.2 can use all U2F keys (including the Ledger Nano S) and that is a godsend already. [1] although if I realize I lost my "paper seed" and I still happen to have my FIDO2 device (or any cloned one I prepared in advance), I can enroll a new device so I'm not totally screwed. And I'll had that many people using a security key that cannot be clone do still use "backup codes" they write down on a piece of paper, which is not safer than writing down a list of words allowing to reinitialize a FIDO2 device.

pabs3 4y ago

Phones don't act as authenticators for FIDO2 yet AFAIK. You usually have either a separate hardware dongle or the OS implements passkeys (WebAuthn in software), which are cloud synced. The way to deal with losing an authenticator is you have multiple of them, including several backups, one in your home safe, one at your friend's place etc.

lll-o-lll 4y ago
No, they do now. Both iOS and Android have full support. Look up “passkey” for more info. Basically, google, apple, MS, etc etc are all supporting this tech now. The recovery process is defined for both Apple and google, as is the device transfer process. Here’s a google post explaining their recovery process: https://security.googleblog.com/2022/10/SecurityofPasskeysintheGooglePasswordManager.html?m=1 https://security.googleblog.com/2022/10/SecurityofPasskeysin...
timwis 4y ago
But then you have to make sure you're home when you setup any new online account (so you can go into your safe and add your backup key to it), or remember to do so when you get home :/
saltcured 4y ago
This new passkey stuff adds use of your phone as an authenticator with a laptop or other system via bluetooth with (unfortunate) cloud-mediation. Before that, some phones could already offer their embedded security chip as a U2F authenticator with the browser app. E.g. I setup the Titan chip in my Pixel 5a as another authenticator with a Google account. But, it only works with a browser on the phone itself. Since the phone browser can also access a Yubikey, I could use the Titan chip to enroll a new Yubikey or vice versa. I do wish there was a standalone "security key" USB mode I could select alongside file transfer, picture transfer, tethering, or charge-only. Then, I could more reasonably use the phone's embedded security chip as a redundant U2F key for many different services I would normally only access from a PC.

viraptor 4y ago

https://sixcolors.com/link/2022/06/how-do-you-recover-passkeys-if-you-lose-all-your-devices/ https://sixcolors.com/link/2022/06/how-do-you-recover-passke... But it's similar to other 2FA methods. First you can use alternative 2FA. When you don't have any more, you can use your recovery codes. If you don't have those, you have to rely on wetware - call support, prove your access in some other way. The last step may not exist for free services...

donatj 4y ago
> After the tenth failed attempt, the escrow record is destroyed. This reads like literal nightmare fuel. Something out of a dystopian sci-fi novel. You get ten attempts to remember your PIN or your entire life will be utterly destroyed. You are locked out of society. Also, what about if I break my iPhone and buy an Android[1]? Just SOL? That seems pretty anticompetitive 1. https://twitter.com/zinko45712997/status/1624766001987604482?s=61&t=D07us2vbRtvSjlsSFE6fPQ https://twitter.com/zinko45712997/status/1624766001987604482... - Quick Twitter search shows this already happening
- chinaman425 4y ago
  [dead]
LelouBil 4y ago
That's why I backup my password Manager's encrypted vault to a paid file storage (AWS S3) If anything catastrophic happens I know I'll be able to recover access as I'm a paying customer.
- makeitdouble 4y ago
  How much support do you actually get ? Tried once to see what access to a human I had with a personal GCP account billed a few hundred bucks every months, and the answer was “not much”, except for specific technical categories defined in the contact form.
  - 4y ago

alwayslikethis 4y ago

I don't get the need to rely on hardware passkeys. I prefer password managers. I guess I can accept using hardware keys as a fast means to access my password managers, but I will not rely on them. The only thing that no one can take from you is the things in your brain. I have a number of 10 character alphanumeric random passwords memorized, and I can use one of them as a master for a password manager, which is backed up in a bunch of places, so I don't lose it while maintaining good security.

snowstormsun 4y ago
A strong password can still be phished. Hardware keys are not vulnerable to phishing.
- px43 4y ago
  Not just phishing, server side attacks can hoover up passwords all day long. Also XSS can extract passwords from password managers, etc. Passwords are dumb. The static/symmetric nature of passwords makes authentication fully transitive, where if A can be tricked into logging into system B, then an attacker on system B can use A's credentials to log in to system C. This is fundamentally broken. We've had asymmetric authentication for nearly 30 years now, it's insane that people are still using passwords to authenticate to stuff.
  - mschuster91 4y ago
    > We've had asymmetric authentication for nearly 30 years now, it's insane that people are still using passwords to authenticate to stuff. The thing is, anything but passwords is extremely challenging for non-tech users. Even SMS-based 2FA is too much for tech illiterate people. You do not want to be the support staff for a service that has 2FA enabled. It's utter madness - people lose their 2FA devices, get them stolen, drop them in water, run over it with their cars, have them eaten by your pets (Yubikeys seem to have a particular attraction to cats and dogs as toys), forget them at home before a vacation, of course no one prints out their 2FA recovery codes... and then there are the scammers who pretend one of these events has happened and the account needs to be unlocked, or those who fell victim to a phishing scam and now 2FA is under the control of the attacker.

jbverschoor 4y ago

I’m also not sure how I can use the same authentication on chrome and safari on the same device.

zokier 4y ago

Yubico explicitly recommends spare keys https://www.yubico.com/spare/ https://www.yubico.com/spare/

kencausey 4y ago
While I don't deny that this a good and perhaps even the best solution I'm sure Yubico is happy with a solution that effectively doubles their sales.
BoppreH 4y ago
I really dislike the spare key solution. It forces users to either carry both keys with them all the time (and risk losing them together), or introduces massive friction into the account creation (have to fetch the spare key from whatever safe or friends house you store it in). I don't understand why better solutions are not considered. Why not derive keys deterministically, so that you only have to backup the seed (a lá SQRL)? Or encrypt the new account with a public key, and store the private key in a safe. To me, "use a spare key" is on the same level of unpractical advice as "just memorize long unique passwords".
- BiteCode_dev 4y ago
  I have 3 keys. One on my keychain in my pocket, on in my bagpack, on at home. The chance of loosing all of them are really slim.
  - BoppreH 4y ago
    > The chance of loosing all of them are really slim. True, but you sacrificed some safety for that. If you're not home, you can only create accounts protected by the keys in your person, and you're one robber (or fall into a pool) away from losing those accounts. I'd never accept a password manager with such limited sync, and those are usually free. Paying for three hardware keys and still having such limitations is beyond me. I'm all for hardware keys, and I'd love to use them to replace all my passwords, but I still wouldn't call your setup "adequate" in terms of either cost, friction, or safety.

simonmales 4y ago

Trezor (cryptocurrency hardware wallet, and my employer) also supports U2F and FIDO. If you use Trezor for FIDO, you can re-create it using the same recovery/seed phrase to re-create your lost Trezor.

candiddevmike 4y ago
Sounds like a password with extra steps
- vel0city 4y ago
  Its a seed value to generate a private key. So its like a password in the same way an SSH private key is a password.

ensignavenger 4y ago

Google provides backup keys you can print out and place in a safe. I find that to be the best solution generally. I also think there is room for different methods for different services. For work accounts, I can contact my boss and have them ship me a new hardware token if necessary- losing only a day or two worth of access (It is even possible for the company to temporarily remove the Hardware Token requirement- or to allow me to enroll a Hardware Token I can purchase locally if necessary). That may work okay for a bank account too- where the bank can verify my identity. For services with not human interaction, pre-generated backup codes seem the most sensible to me.

ievans 4y ago
I was relying on backup codes until I recently learned (via a PSA on HN) that you should actually backup the TOTP QR codes and not rely on the 2fa backup codes because they may not provide the same level of access. Specifically, the HN post claim was that using a backup 2FA code to get into your Google account won’t allow you to add a new authenticator app.