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> I would hope somebody sees this now and prioritzes a Chromium bug for it. Rather, one would hope that Apple sees it realizes that their short-sighted, bone-h

by kibwen 4y ago

> I would hope somebody sees this now and prioritzes a Chromium bug for it. Rather, one would hope that Apple sees it realizes that their short-sighted, bone-headed, pea-brained idea to eliminate scroll bars should be rolled back. Of course, I'm not holding my breath. Yet another example of their crusade to prioritize form over function, exemplifying why I find their products to be infuriating to deal with.

dcow 4y ago
[flagged]
kanbara 4y ago
> chrome extensions have horrible flaws and browsers are fundamentally broken > apple sucks and is the reason for all evil because scroll bars we dont have scroll bars on mobile as in days of yore. maybe browsers need to finish playing catchup to the threat and interaction models. having a vm on your machine with access to everything you do without sandbox is pretty bad
- kevingadd 4y ago
  Hiding scrollbars has been obviously bad UX since day one and this has only become more obvious over time. It doesn't matter whether you're doing it in a web browser or not, whataboutism isn't an appropriate response
  - elecush 4y ago
    the fact that the browser extension can have access to shared memory is the root problem though x)
danuker 4y ago
> Rather The air travel industry uses the Swiss cheese security model. EVERYONE does what they can to improve security. The equivalent would be both Google and Apple making improvements. Both of the problems might be leveraged in a future attack. Fix along the whole chain of events, not just break it - defense in depth.
bigfudge 4y ago
Having less visual clutter -is- function to me. I really don’t miss permanent scroll bars and hope they don’t bring them back. Most Macs ship with a trackpad, which means I can’t remember when I last deliberately gripped a scroll bar. They are just a waste of space most of the time, even as an affordance/reminder that scrolling is possible.
- flohofwoe 4y ago
  I hardly use the scrollbar either (even when using a mouse), but the scrollbar is an important visual clue what portion of a scrollable page is currently being shown, no matter what the input method is. Apple could just have turned the interactive scrollbar into a much slimmer non-interactive hint and all would be fine, but no, they had to go "form over function" again :/
  - bigfudge 4y ago
    I see your point, but I still think this is a matter of preference and priorities. I stand by the original argument that for most people, a minor twitch of their fingers on the trackpad reveals this information if they want it. I very rarely do want this though, and on average I prefer that it's not shown by default, or until I move. This discussion was prompted by a UI fail in presenting relevant security information. Relying on permanent scroll bars would still be a UX fail, even if it were the default on Macs.
- froggit 4y ago
  Wouldn't it be cool if apple had some kind of menu called like "display settings" or something, and in that menu there was like a checkbox labeled "use invisible scrollbars", and when the checkbox was checked, scrollbars would be invisible, then when it was unchecked, and I know this'll sound crazy, the scollbars would be visible, and people could just make it look the way they like?
  - eitland 4y ago
    Exactly. So much is broken because of misunderstood UX design. Today I was again reminded that many years ago some UX designer thought it would be a great idea to remove back/forward buttons from the context menu in Firefox if I accidentally select some text on a page I visit. No one was asked and when someone filed a bug it was ignored because ux designers had already decided. Result: - a few times every month back/ forward buttons are missing - the look and feel of the context menu changes for no good reason
KyeRussell 4y ago
No surprise that the person overreacting about an Apple design decision ends their comment with “yeah and just don’t like them anyway!” Critiques of Apple from people that have this sort of wide-ranging vitriolic hate for Apple are a dime a dozen, and don’t make for any sort of interesting or enjoyable conversation.

by kibwen 4y ago

dcow 4y ago

[flagged]

kanbara 4y ago

> chrome extensions have horrible flaws and browsers are fundamentally broken > apple sucks and is the reason for all evil because scroll bars we dont have scroll bars on mobile as in days of yore. maybe browsers need to finish playing catchup to the threat and interaction models. having a vm on your machine with access to everything you do without sandbox is pretty bad

kevingadd 4y ago
Hiding scrollbars has been obviously bad UX since day one and this has only become more obvious over time. It doesn't matter whether you're doing it in a web browser or not, whataboutism isn't an appropriate response
- elecush 4y ago
  the fact that the browser extension can have access to shared memory is the root problem though x)

danuker 4y ago

> Rather The air travel industry uses the Swiss cheese security model. EVERYONE does what they can to improve security. The equivalent would be both Google and Apple making improvements. Both of the problems might be leveraged in a future attack. Fix along the whole chain of events, not just break it - defense in depth.

bigfudge 4y ago

Having less visual clutter -is- function to me. I really don’t miss permanent scroll bars and hope they don’t bring them back. Most Macs ship with a trackpad, which means I can’t remember when I last deliberately gripped a scroll bar. They are just a waste of space most of the time, even as an affordance/reminder that scrolling is possible.

flohofwoe 4y ago
I hardly use the scrollbar either (even when using a mouse), but the scrollbar is an important visual clue what portion of a scrollable page is currently being shown, no matter what the input method is. Apple could just have turned the interactive scrollbar into a much slimmer non-interactive hint and all would be fine, but no, they had to go "form over function" again :/
- bigfudge 4y ago
  I see your point, but I still think this is a matter of preference and priorities. I stand by the original argument that for most people, a minor twitch of their fingers on the trackpad reveals this information if they want it. I very rarely do want this though, and on average I prefer that it's not shown by default, or until I move. This discussion was prompted by a UI fail in presenting relevant security information. Relying on permanent scroll bars would still be a UX fail, even if it were the default on Macs.
froggit 4y ago
Wouldn't it be cool if apple had some kind of menu called like "display settings" or something, and in that menu there was like a checkbox labeled "use invisible scrollbars", and when the checkbox was checked, scrollbars would be invisible, then when it was unchecked, and I know this'll sound crazy, the scollbars would be visible, and people could just make it look the way they like?
- eitland 4y ago
  Exactly. So much is broken because of misunderstood UX design. Today I was again reminded that many years ago some UX designer thought it would be a great idea to remove back/forward buttons from the context menu in Firefox if I accidentally select some text on a page I visit. No one was asked and when someone filed a bug it was ignored because ux designers had already decided. Result: - a few times every month back/ forward buttons are missing - the look and feel of the context menu changes for no good reason

KyeRussell 4y ago

No surprise that the person overreacting about an Apple design decision ends their comment with “yeah and just don’t like them anyway!” Critiques of Apple from people that have this sort of wide-ranging vitriolic hate for Apple are a dime a dozen, and don’t make for any sort of interesting or enjoyable conversation.