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Interestingly you describe the shattering of your delusion as the return of your ego - I think it is the opposite. I think you invited an inflated ego into your

Interestingly you describe the shattering of your delusion as the return of your ego - I think it is the opposite. I think you invited an inflated ego into your life through your meditation : "I should become a guru and help humanity" <-- that is ego speaking. The shattering of this idea is is not ego but humility, to my way of thinking.

2-718-281-828 4y ago
you have a point
- realce 4y ago
  It's also just a mind that might be desperate for a core identity after having its last one logically dissolved through introspection. While ego can hijack identity for it's own mad desires, an identity is required for the actuation of relational actions on a basic level. With no "center" from which to make decisions, the functions of your mind tasked with making choices will panic - this is a foundation of brainwashing/psychological manipulation. Very similar things happen to people who have a TBI, where they become stressed when forced to make choices that seem to have zero baring on "their" lives. So dissolved identity > Panic attacks when choice-satisfaction plummets > subconscious suggests all kinds of cartoonist extremes for an easy and powerful identity > Conscious mind agrees to play along, uses this character to make decisions about > Choice-satisfaction rises.
  - Eupraxias 4y ago
    "So dissolved identity > Panic attacks when choice-satisfaction plummets > subconscious suggests all kinds of cartoonist extremes for an easy and powerful identity > Conscious mind agrees to play along, uses this character to make decisions about > Choice-satisfaction rises. " I'm sure it's different for most others, but I had the opposite experience. It has introduced a great calm into my life. From where I am now, I see identity as the central problem we face as a species.
    - zozbot234 4y ago
      > From where I am now, I see identity as the central problem we face as a species. Yeah, except that in practice awareness of no-self is very far from an ethical cure-it-all. There's plenty of supposedly "enlightened" folks in a variety of spiritual traditions who routinely engage in morally sub-standard behavior, despite having reached that awareness themselves and teaching it to others. We know for a fact that many spiritual traditions view correct ethics and behavior as paramount, and as the hardest part of their training.
  - flycaliguy 4y ago
    Can you elaborate on your comment regarding TBI? I’m, uh, asking for a friend.
    - realce 4y ago
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoiZs7QpDUY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoiZs7QpDUY I remember a clip I'd seen where a veteran with a TBI would break down when shopping, since there's so many choices that are focused at appealing to personality rather than utility, and his notion of his own personality was minimal.
jossclimb 4y ago
I was more humouring the situation there and adding some color, but for sure, the ego is incredibly powerful and deep seated. I firmly believe what I had initially was profound, and was hijacked by the ego (and this is a very common happening to anyone on a spiritual journey of some sort).
- mtalantikite 4y ago
  The best book I've read on this topic is Chögyam Trungpa's "Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism" [1]. He's very clear in pointing out how ego tries to get involved in everything. It sounds like you may have had an experience, to some extent, of dwelling in the union of wisdom and emptiness or what some call dharmadhatu [2]. It's not a teaching I encountered until I started practicing Vajrayana, as Theravada teachers don't often emphasize the teachings on sunyata. It's something you'll encounter in Mahamudra and Dzogchen teachings. [1] https://www.shambhala.com/cutting-through-spiritual-materialism-458.html https://www.shambhala.com/cutting-through-spiritual-material... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharmadhatu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharmadhatu
  - zozbot234 4y ago
    > ... the union of wisdom and emptiness ... Ah, the extent that some people will go through to avoid acknowledging God. It's like some people take stubborn pleasure in being purposely nihilistic and strenuously denying all that's good about the world. How this can be part of a supposedly spiritual practice, I just can't understand.
    - cybervaz 4y ago
      They think they are on a journey yo self enlightenment when they're actually in a very dangerous road to spiritual weakness, causing damage to their souls and leaving gaps to be used by entities that they'll not feel any pleasure of knowing. That sense of impeding doom is nothing more than those spiritual entities oppressing with overwhelming power them by those gaps. We are locked out of that world for a reason. The safe means to get unlocked is by getting your soul to borrow the power of God and slowly expose yourself to such world. Other than that, self enlightenment is just wishful thinking of empty vessels.
mettamage 4y ago
Favorited, I'm on a quest to be egoless as I'm finding the ego to be an issue in my day to day. It's hard to pinpoint the ego, but you did so wonderfully :)
- rattlesnakedave 4y ago
  you need some ego. otherwise you won't know where to point your fork to eat.
  - nick__m 4y ago
    you reminded me of some John lenon comment on ego death : I got the message that I should destroy my ego and I did, you know. I was reading that stupid book of Leary’s; we were going through a whole game that everybody went through, and I destroyed myself. I was slowly putting myself together round about Maharishi time. Bit by bit over a two-year period, I had destroyed me ego. I didn’t believe I could do anything and let people make me, and let them all just do what they wanted. I just was nothing. I was shit. Then Derek tripped me out at his house after he got back from L.A. He sort of said “You’re all right,” and pointed out which songs I had written. “You wrote this,” and “You said this” and “You are intelligent, don’t be frightened.” -- https://www.johnlennon.com/music/interviews/rolling-stone-interview-1970/ https://www.johnlennon.com/music/interviews/rolling-stone-in...
  - lend000 4y ago
    I haven't quite achieved an ego death yet through meditation, but reading through a fair amount of psychedelic journeys suggests that eliminating the ego, while perhaps useful and enlightening in moderation, sort of defeats the point of living a life in this world. If the world really does exist simply to provide experiential distraction from the existential dread of being an absolute consciousness in the void (which is a big if), why be in such a rush to get back into that base state? Go experience all the wonders of the world, take risks, spread positivity.
    - zozbot234 4y ago
      No-self is not really about eliminating the ego, it's about eliminating the craving for an ego. These two are not the same; in fact, the latter seems to be harder. It's why so many meditators anecdotally get stuck in their "Dark Night". I don't know what psychedelic "ego death" does exactly, but I'm skeptical that it addresses craving.
astrange 4y ago
That's very similar to the boddhisatva vow many Buddhists are required to take.
- wlonkly 4y ago
  The "help humanity" part is; the "become a guru" part less so. If anything I'd say the bodhisattva vow is "this is impossible, but I'm going to try it anyways".
JamesBarney 4y ago
Meditation and psychology have a specific term for ego, like when referring to ego death. And it doesn't quite mean the same thing as ego in common usage. It usually means a break down of sense of self, this can happen on psychedelics or in schizophrenia. This can also be accompanied with delusions of grandeur, they're not mutually exclusive.
- DontchaKnowit 4y ago
  Delusions of granduer is basically an inflated sense of self - e.g. an inflated ego. Whether using the common parlance or the jungian definition, its the same thing in this context. Always tough to discuss slippery, ill defined things such as ego, which in a real sense does not actually exist.
  - JamesBarney 4y ago
    Usually inflated sense of self means feeling more important than you are. Though linguistically similar is different from the sense of self that you lose from psychedelics and schizophrenia which is literally losing your self of self. You become disconnected from your thoughts and actions. And many schizophrenics experience both. My mother for instance at one point thought she was Jesus but also thought some of her thoughts or actions were not her own.
- blueprint 4y ago
  there is such a thing as a true self and false selves. can you tell them apart?
electrondood 4y ago
You get it. These adverse experiences are the ego's last-ditch effort to maintain cohesion. It's the same with psychedelics. If you let go in the face of the terror and accept, the terror becomes utter bliss. In response to these experiences, ask "Who exactly are they happening to?"
blueprint 4y ago
dude, ego is a health regulating system. do not try to destroy it in others. what you should destroy are delusional words.

2-718-281-828 4y ago

you have a point

realce 4y ago
It's also just a mind that might be desperate for a core identity after having its last one logically dissolved through introspection. While ego can hijack identity for it's own mad desires, an identity is required for the actuation of relational actions on a basic level. With no "center" from which to make decisions, the functions of your mind tasked with making choices will panic - this is a foundation of brainwashing/psychological manipulation. Very similar things happen to people who have a TBI, where they become stressed when forced to make choices that seem to have zero baring on "their" lives. So dissolved identity > Panic attacks when choice-satisfaction plummets > subconscious suggests all kinds of cartoonist extremes for an easy and powerful identity > Conscious mind agrees to play along, uses this character to make decisions about > Choice-satisfaction rises.
- Eupraxias 4y ago
  "So dissolved identity > Panic attacks when choice-satisfaction plummets > subconscious suggests all kinds of cartoonist extremes for an easy and powerful identity > Conscious mind agrees to play along, uses this character to make decisions about > Choice-satisfaction rises. " I'm sure it's different for most others, but I had the opposite experience. It has introduced a great calm into my life. From where I am now, I see identity as the central problem we face as a species.
  - zozbot234 4y ago
    > From where I am now, I see identity as the central problem we face as a species. Yeah, except that in practice awareness of no-self is very far from an ethical cure-it-all. There's plenty of supposedly "enlightened" folks in a variety of spiritual traditions who routinely engage in morally sub-standard behavior, despite having reached that awareness themselves and teaching it to others. We know for a fact that many spiritual traditions view correct ethics and behavior as paramount, and as the hardest part of their training.
- flycaliguy 4y ago
  Can you elaborate on your comment regarding TBI? I’m, uh, asking for a friend.
  - realce 4y ago
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoiZs7QpDUY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoiZs7QpDUY I remember a clip I'd seen where a veteran with a TBI would break down when shopping, since there's so many choices that are focused at appealing to personality rather than utility, and his notion of his own personality was minimal.

jossclimb 4y ago

I was more humouring the situation there and adding some color, but for sure, the ego is incredibly powerful and deep seated. I firmly believe what I had initially was profound, and was hijacked by the ego (and this is a very common happening to anyone on a spiritual journey of some sort).

mtalantikite 4y ago
The best book I've read on this topic is Chögyam Trungpa's "Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism" [1]. He's very clear in pointing out how ego tries to get involved in everything. It sounds like you may have had an experience, to some extent, of dwelling in the union of wisdom and emptiness or what some call dharmadhatu [2]. It's not a teaching I encountered until I started practicing Vajrayana, as Theravada teachers don't often emphasize the teachings on sunyata. It's something you'll encounter in Mahamudra and Dzogchen teachings. [1] https://www.shambhala.com/cutting-through-spiritual-materialism-458.html https://www.shambhala.com/cutting-through-spiritual-material... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharmadhatu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharmadhatu
- zozbot234 4y ago
  > ... the union of wisdom and emptiness ... Ah, the extent that some people will go through to avoid acknowledging God. It's like some people take stubborn pleasure in being purposely nihilistic and strenuously denying all that's good about the world. How this can be part of a supposedly spiritual practice, I just can't understand.
  - cybervaz 4y ago
    They think they are on a journey yo self enlightenment when they're actually in a very dangerous road to spiritual weakness, causing damage to their souls and leaving gaps to be used by entities that they'll not feel any pleasure of knowing. That sense of impeding doom is nothing more than those spiritual entities oppressing with overwhelming power them by those gaps. We are locked out of that world for a reason. The safe means to get unlocked is by getting your soul to borrow the power of God and slowly expose yourself to such world. Other than that, self enlightenment is just wishful thinking of empty vessels.

mettamage 4y ago

Favorited, I'm on a quest to be egoless as I'm finding the ego to be an issue in my day to day. It's hard to pinpoint the ego, but you did so wonderfully :)

rattlesnakedave 4y ago
you need some ego. otherwise you won't know where to point your fork to eat.
- nick__m 4y ago
  you reminded me of some John lenon comment on ego death : I got the message that I should destroy my ego and I did, you know. I was reading that stupid book of Leary’s; we were going through a whole game that everybody went through, and I destroyed myself. I was slowly putting myself together round about Maharishi time. Bit by bit over a two-year period, I had destroyed me ego. I didn’t believe I could do anything and let people make me, and let them all just do what they wanted. I just was nothing. I was shit. Then Derek tripped me out at his house after he got back from L.A. He sort of said “You’re all right,” and pointed out which songs I had written. “You wrote this,” and “You said this” and “You are intelligent, don’t be frightened.” -- https://www.johnlennon.com/music/interviews/rolling-stone-interview-1970/ https://www.johnlennon.com/music/interviews/rolling-stone-in...
- lend000 4y ago
  I haven't quite achieved an ego death yet through meditation, but reading through a fair amount of psychedelic journeys suggests that eliminating the ego, while perhaps useful and enlightening in moderation, sort of defeats the point of living a life in this world. If the world really does exist simply to provide experiential distraction from the existential dread of being an absolute consciousness in the void (which is a big if), why be in such a rush to get back into that base state? Go experience all the wonders of the world, take risks, spread positivity.
  - zozbot234 4y ago
    No-self is not really about eliminating the ego, it's about eliminating the craving for an ego. These two are not the same; in fact, the latter seems to be harder. It's why so many meditators anecdotally get stuck in their "Dark Night". I don't know what psychedelic "ego death" does exactly, but I'm skeptical that it addresses craving.

astrange 4y ago

That's very similar to the boddhisatva vow many Buddhists are required to take.

wlonkly 4y ago
The "help humanity" part is; the "become a guru" part less so. If anything I'd say the bodhisattva vow is "this is impossible, but I'm going to try it anyways".

JamesBarney 4y ago

Meditation and psychology have a specific term for ego, like when referring to ego death. And it doesn't quite mean the same thing as ego in common usage. It usually means a break down of sense of self, this can happen on psychedelics or in schizophrenia. This can also be accompanied with delusions of grandeur, they're not mutually exclusive.

DontchaKnowit 4y ago
Delusions of granduer is basically an inflated sense of self - e.g. an inflated ego. Whether using the common parlance or the jungian definition, its the same thing in this context. Always tough to discuss slippery, ill defined things such as ego, which in a real sense does not actually exist.
- JamesBarney 4y ago
  Usually inflated sense of self means feeling more important than you are. Though linguistically similar is different from the sense of self that you lose from psychedelics and schizophrenia which is literally losing your self of self. You become disconnected from your thoughts and actions. And many schizophrenics experience both. My mother for instance at one point thought she was Jesus but also thought some of her thoughts or actions were not her own.
blueprint 4y ago
there is such a thing as a true self and false selves. can you tell them apart?

electrondood 4y ago

You get it. These adverse experiences are the ego's last-ditch effort to maintain cohesion. It's the same with psychedelics. If you let go in the face of the terror and accept, the terror becomes utter bliss. In response to these experiences, ask "Who exactly are they happening to?"

blueprint 4y ago

dude, ego is a health regulating system. do not try to destroy it in others. what you should destroy are delusional words.