4 ms·

“Night owl” does not describe some innate biological reality. It’s a matter of preference and habit.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
lumb63 4y ago
To the contrary, there are genetic changes that correlate to different chronotypes [0]. I find interesting the hypothesis that chronotypes arose as a survival advantage because tribes could more naturally sleep in shifts to stay safe during the night time. I do think, however, the genetic component is overstated. I agree with you that it is more habit than anything, and lifestyle. We as a society should do more research to determine how large the habit versus genetic components are, or publicize the information and act on it more if it is out there already. If we are fighting an unwinnable battle trying to adjust people in opposition to their genetics, we should change our practices. Similarly, if we are instilling a defeatist mindset into people (e.g. “I can’t do that, I’m not an early bird”) which cannot be justified by science, we should change our perception. [0]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6084759/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6084759/
- edgyquant 4y ago
  The fact it’s called a correlation shows it is not a fact that there are biological night owls.
  - seymourhersh 4y ago
    And it shows that it’s not a fact that there are not.
  - dahinds 4y ago
    In this case the correlation is due to a causal relationship between genetic variation and chronotype that is well established. The roles of many of the genes involved have been established in lab organisms -- fruit flys and mice mostly -- yes you can observe and manipulate chronotype in flys. The same circadian rhythm genes have similar functions in people. There are rare mutations in these genes that cause familial sleep disruption syndromes, as well as common variants that have small effects that can be detected in large studies.
junofan 4y ago
I think with genetic sequencing we’re way past this belief.
- edgyquant 4y ago
  We are not. There are some suggestions that they might be biological but it is not a settled matter at all.
  - dahinds 4y ago
    It is absolutely settled. The genetic basis of chronotype has been extensively studied in fruit flys and mice, and parallel effects in the same genes have been found in humans.
CommieBobDole 4y ago
I'm not sure that's true, at least based on personal experience. I'm a long-time night owl who has been getting up relatively early for work purposes the last couple of years. I still do my best work late at night and struggle a little on complex tasks before noon. It seems like, while I can adjust my sleep schedule to whatever, the actual cycles of alertness have their own schedule that doesn't want to move.
908B64B197 4y ago
Without a clear biochemical pathway (or an absence of) that's just an opinion, as weak as most the the current research in humanities.
- dahinds 4y ago
  This is false, the biological pathways that underly circadian rhythms have been mapped out in great detail in multiple organisms.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

To the contrary, there are genetic changes that correlate to different chronotypes [0]. I find interesting the hypothesis that chronotypes arose as a survival advantage because tribes could more naturally sleep in shifts to stay safe during the night time. I do think, however, the genetic component is overstated. I agree with you that it is more habit than anything, and lifestyle. We as a society should do more research to determine how large the habit versus genetic components are, or publicize the information and act on it more if it is out there already. If we are fighting an unwinnable battle trying to adjust people in opposition to their genetics, we should change our practices. Similarly, if we are instilling a defeatist mindset into people (e.g. “I can’t do that, I’m not an early bird”) which cannot be justified by science, we should change our perception. [0]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6084759/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6084759/

edgyquant 4y ago
The fact it’s called a correlation shows it is not a fact that there are biological night owls.
- seymourhersh 4y ago
  And it shows that it’s not a fact that there are not.
- dahinds 4y ago
  In this case the correlation is due to a causal relationship between genetic variation and chronotype that is well established. The roles of many of the genes involved have been established in lab organisms -- fruit flys and mice mostly -- yes you can observe and manipulate chronotype in flys. The same circadian rhythm genes have similar functions in people. There are rare mutations in these genes that cause familial sleep disruption syndromes, as well as common variants that have small effects that can be detected in large studies.

junofan 4y ago

I think with genetic sequencing we’re way past this belief.

edgyquant 4y ago
We are not. There are some suggestions that they might be biological but it is not a settled matter at all.
- dahinds 4y ago
  It is absolutely settled. The genetic basis of chronotype has been extensively studied in fruit flys and mice, and parallel effects in the same genes have been found in humans.

CommieBobDole 4y ago

I'm not sure that's true, at least based on personal experience. I'm a long-time night owl who has been getting up relatively early for work purposes the last couple of years. I still do my best work late at night and struggle a little on complex tasks before noon. It seems like, while I can adjust my sleep schedule to whatever, the actual cycles of alertness have their own schedule that doesn't want to move.

908B64B197 4y ago

Without a clear biochemical pathway (or an absence of) that's just an opinion, as weak as most the the current research in humanities.

dahinds 4y ago
This is false, the biological pathways that underly circadian rhythms have been mapped out in great detail in multiple organisms.