7 ms·

How India’s caste system manifests in Seattle-area workplaces and beyond

97 points by rawgabbit 4y ago

reactspa 4y ago
For what it's worth, caste has fortunately ceased to have meaning in a tiny number of social and geographic circles. But upper castes are in denial about how caste plays out in the rest of India. They will claim it was something in the past. Wrong. Upper castes still often whisper about so and so being a *** (impolite way of referring to someone of a lower caste), or about such and such work (e.g. cleaning dishes) being the work of a *** and not a Brahmin like themselves. Some now claim that caste was created by the British. Wrong. Al Biruni (traveler from Persia) in 1020 wrote in Tarikh Al-Hind (History of India) about how when there was a communal meal in the village, a barrier needed to be put up between people of lower castes and people of upper castes. My own personal experiences with caste (as someone exposed to it very late in life) were described here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31035615 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31035615
- conductr 4y ago
  It will take many generations to culturally "forget" about it. Similar to race in the USA. The movements/laws/wokeness to help move things in the right direction are all good and needed (don't get me wrong) but the cultural part of growing up hearing how your parents/grandparents talk about other people and whatnot in a private setting means that the issues will persist for some time.
- gamblor956 4y ago
  I've always thought it interesting that Brahmins are still considered to be the "upper" caste, considering that their caste position historically owed entirely to their caste devoting itself purely to religious worship, forswearing material possessions and comforts. A rich Brahmin is, therefore by definition, not a Brahmin...and should be regarded as an outcaste and shunned. And that's exactly what I tell them when they judge me for not having a caste.
  - dalpat2023 4y ago
    [flagged]
  - unmole 4y ago
    > forswearing material possessions and comforts. You're describing a sanyasin. A typical Brahmin, like anyone else is recommended to go through the usual stages of life including that of a Grihastha. And as a Grihastha, one is expected to pursue wealth and material wellbeing. I'm all for telling off casteist scum but it probably helps to be accurate.
    - gamblor956 4y ago
      If you want to be technical about it, the status of the Brahmin caste as the "uppermost" or "holiest" caste was that they were the priestly caste, and skipped the Grihastha stage, surviving by begging, through payment for religious services performed, or royal succor. (https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/manusmriti-with-the-commentary-of-medhatithi/d/doc200103.html https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/manusmriti-with-the-...) A wealthy Brahmin was therefore, by definition not a Brahmin.
      - unmole 4y ago
        I'm sorry, what? > the status of the Brahmin caste as the "uppermost" or "holiest" caste was that they were the priestly caste, and skipped the Grihastha stage, You linked to the section that specifically prescribes conduct during the Grihastha stage. That contradicts your assertion that Brahmins are supposed to skip the Grihastha stage. > A wealthy Brahmin was therefore, by definition not a Brahmin. The very section you linked to says He shall be either one possessing a granary full of grains. Accumulation of wealth is explicitly allowed.
        gamblor956 4y ago
        I can see that reading comprehension is hard for you. The full page notes: "‘Four kinds of livelihood for householders have been described by the wise—the first is the possessing of a granary-full of grains; then the possessing of a jar-full of grains; then the possessing of not enough for the morrow; and the last is the method of the pigeon (having nothing beyond the present meal); among these the following is superior to the preceding.’ If you define this stage to mean materialistic wealth, then the Brahmins skip this stage. If you define this to mean the stage of one's life where material wealth is accumluated, then you would be correct that Brahmins pass through this stage, but only by shirking the accumulation of material wealth for religious pursuit. Therefore, by definition, a Brahmin as historically defined cannot be wealthy, anymore than a Catholic priest can bear children and still call themselves a priest.
- dalpat2023 4y ago
  [flagged]
Arnavion 4y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34876082 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34876082
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
jagjotsingh 4y ago
After India got it's independence, many great people tried to abolish the caste system of India. One prominent name was Dr. B.R. Ambedkar. When he tried to uproot it through the use of law, he was faced with opposition from Hindus themselves. This system was kept in place so that a section of people can be exploited forever. I have seen places where caste doesn't matter at all in India but unfortunately this system is prevalent in the very fabric of Indian society. Even at the places where it doesn't matter you'll still hear about it even if it is just a curious query from somebody.
- z3phyr 4y ago
  > This system was kept in place so that a section of people can be exploited forever There is no law that upholds the caste system. Caste discrimination is criminal offense, and affirmative action is in-place. Its more of systematic societal problem, which can only be fixed if the society is large is properly integrated and educated.
princevegeta89 4y ago
I am Indian and I absolutely detest the caste system we have back home. I grew up with people from multiple castes and backgrounds and witnessed the kind of discrimination faced by seemingly lower caste people. Unfortunately, some educated yet stubborn brutes from India that end up immigrating to other countries try to spread this disease and separatism among others as well. They are the worst kind of scum India has ever produced. It is also unfortunate and silly that a lot of those entitled upper-caste people have a false sense of supremacy because of no reason other than belonging to a specific caste, even if it gave them no practical advantage. As someone who witnessed multiple events of discrimination and meaningless hatred, I was able to spread this awareness to my friends and within my social circle in hopes that they can try to help someone somewhere and help more people get that awareness. Another potentially upsetting fact is that a shocking majority of politicians who don't do any real things for the society retort to caste-based unification to gain support and votes from people belonging to certain castes. It's ridiculous that this one blinding blanket called "caste" also helps reap a lot of votes and popularity for them. There is some good news here as well - cities and new generations of youth seem to be developing maturity and also at the same time holding little to no regard for caste system anymore. I urge you all Indians to do the same and kill the fucking bitch of that caste system once and for all. Feel free to encourage more inter-cast, inter-religion marriages, and shut down people who initiate those caste-supremacy talks at any point, regardless of who they are. Good changes in society always start with not being afraid.
- dalpat2023 4y ago
  [flagged]
- russelldjimmy 4y ago
  We will not move past the “caste system” (or any other system or “-ism”) till we face our fear of being expelled for non-conformity. This is the root of it every -ism, I believe. This is difficult and will not happen in one or two generations. This cannot be regulated or incentivised into happening. It will take much more introspection from each and every one of us. It requires each of us to awaken to the suffering we bring unto ourselves and unto those around us. Till that day comes, each system and -ism will continue to thrive. I shared a personal experience on another HN thread of the same type. It might give some insight into this problem: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34876455 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34876455 Hating on a system of hate will not solve the issue. Becoming aware of the potential hate within each of us, accepting that the hate is a coping mechanism for fear, and then discarding it is the only way forward. It starts by looking within each of us, and then changing our own lives, and hoping that this sets an example for those around us, who can choose to follow and change, or may also choose to continue in their set ways.
ur-whale 4y ago
https://archive.is/rpSXB https://archive.is/rpSXB
AverageDude 4y ago
Not only caste, the hatred for minority (in India) has also made it’s way to the West. Some of them just can’t digest meeting the minorities as equals in the West. I remember reading jokes about Sikhs being taxi drivers on Twitter. Casual racism is just thrown around in conversations.
- dalpat2023 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - AverageDude 4y ago
    I rest my case. The bigotry is not even held back here on HN. Your answers are no different from CCP supporters who say almost similar stuff.
    - Cymrukicks 4y ago
      Yeah that was crazy and so blatant, it really allows you to see how pervasive this is when its somewhere you'd think of civil like HN.
    - dang 4y ago
      We've banned that account. But since you've added a comment about HN, I want to say: it's unrealistic to expect such comments not to appear on any large, open internet forum. As anyone can create an account and post anything, anything that exists in society is going to show up here. All we can do is react once it does.
  - esrh 4y ago
    Sikhs being affluent makes it ok? You do know which other group is often singled out for this right? "Everyone's made fun so it's ok" is on the same level as "I'm not racist i hate everyone." It's veiling what people actually think, and thereby not addressing the issue (or even admitting one exists, really) As for democracy: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_India https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_India But if you mean "total democracy" in the sense of unchecked oppression of the minority by the majority i think you'd be closer to the truth.
ta278 4y ago
[flagged]
yinyang_in 4y ago
Read something like this would happening in right-leaning book “snakes of Ganga”. Still is first few chapter. Eventually the idea of CRT(critical race theory) is to align the “racism” in west is because of casteism in India.
- yinyang_in 4y ago
  Also not very sure about “origin” is this “idiotic system” as the ”word” itself doesn’t have native origin. This seems like system like “dowry” which started with good intentions & still has value but has become a “daemon” in its own. Still makes me think about origin, because origin usually has the solution to problems.
  - inawarminister 4y ago
    Isn't the original word for castes Varnas? As a post-Hindu culture, we used to have the four castes (I think the Balinese still use them for marriages and stuffs), but never as strict as in India. Still, the generation that destroyed it (in the 1600s-1800s) found themselves stuck in another racist-classist caste system of Europeans on the top, "Orientals" on the middle, and natives on the bottom. The solution to that was inverting the colonial racist system for a while. Fortunately we stopped after only 2-3 generations. We still don't have perfect equality though - but much better than previously. One can not change his skin, but he can change his wealth level.
    - unmole 4y ago
      > Isn't the original word for castes Varnas? Caste is used to refer to both Varna and Jati. OP is trying to pretend that the lexical gap implies that the caste system is of foreign origin.
      - yinyang_in 4y ago
        Varna & Jati are different lexicon. Jati are like “bhel”, “Khasi”. Varna has he mentioned above. Check local language, it’s gives better perspective rather than imposed idea.
hinata08 4y ago
I'm a bit surprised by some points in the article. >“why would I even report to HR when they probably don’t even know where India is on a map?” (Much less, understand the complexity of caste.) Who are these HR people who don't try their best to get to know employees, and to make them feel comfortable on the workplace ? I thought most HR departments would include sociology graduates, or at least sensible people, who have the curiosity to understand networks of power inside the company. How do you manage a company when you can't understand the actual hierarchy and influences among workers ? Also, the case of the manager is highly inappropriate as well. He should just be fired. Lastly > “People would only want to live with roommates from their own caste,” she said. Good riddance to bad rubbish! Who would want to share a flat with morons, anyway ? You can just find actual friends at uni to share a flat. And with their mindset, I doubt they can actually settle down. I heard that my company had issues with some Indian workers who moved in, when they expected HR to find them a flat, fix their oven, arrange taxis, or run their errands,... because they were 'elite' as well. I'm in France. They have 'equality' in their motto, and are proud of an history of being at the literal cutting edge of mechanical engineering to chop all heads in a republican way : equally (but especially them of the elites). So as far as I heard, it upset some locals who were suddenly considered Untermenschen by an 'elite' guy who just moved in. But it's just an history of the past. So I'm not sure some of these guy made a long time around here.
- unmole 4y ago
  > heard that my company had issues with some Indian workers who moved in, when they expected HR to find them a flat This just seems to be a case of mismatch in expectations. Companies around the world provide expatriate relocation packages. The idea being expats wouldn't be familiar with how things are done in a foreign countries. I don't understand why you think this was relevant to the topic.
  - kevviiinn 4y ago
    It's definitely relevant. Some upper caste individuals, from my personal experience, tend to expect things to be done for them by others. It doesn't matter what position the other person holds, the only thing that matters is the authority given by caste
TMWNN 4y ago
[flagged]
- unmole 4y ago
  Do you want to keep posting the same comment each time?
  - dang 4y ago
    Yes, that's egregious and I've added a request to stop to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34892729 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34892729.
- MPlus88 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - dang 4y ago
    You can't post slurs to HN like this. I've banned the account. Please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- dang 4y ago
  Please don't take HN threads into nationalistic or ethnic flamewar. We ban accounts that do this. You unfortunately have a history of breaking the site guidelines and we've asked you to stop many times: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31749192 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31749192 (June 2022) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31749182 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31749182 (June 2022) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28409198 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28409198 (Sept 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24278328 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24278328 (Aug 2020) That's not cool. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it. Edit: Also, please stop copy-pasting the same comments: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3ATMWNN%20caste&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que.... This is particularly abusive when you're copying flamebait.
thro_caste_away 4y ago
Many people in this thread are suggesting that this evil will not be gotten rid of anytime soon. But I can tell you that casteism in India, and the degree of it, is not uniformly distributed throughout India. There are some states and regions where marrying outside your caste is signing your own death warrant, and people from so-called upper castes don't even share tables with lower caste people. But there are some areas where casteism is non-existent, and inter-caste marriage is rampant, and a small fraction of inter-caste relations are even arranged marriages. Northern states are the hotbed of castiesm where it is overt and violent and there are honor killings. In South, it is covert, and appears in form of virtues signalling, power sharing, not intermarrying, etc. The western regions have some lower form of casteism. And in the eastern regions, it is quite non-existent. I live in the state of West Bengal, and I have never seen overt casteism. Inter-caste relations and marriages are rampant. What led to this change? Buddhism had a very strong foothold here historically. Then ~500 years ago Bhakti movement that does not recognizes caste but only one's devotion was very popular. Then Calcutta and Bengal was the seat of British rule for decades. Then three decades of Communist rule up to 2010 destroyed the state's economics, but communality and casteism is low. And there are places in India, where castiesm is lower. Like Kerala. There was very popular anti-caste movement in Tamil Nadu: look up Periyar. So, casteism isn’t uniformly present in the same degree in India, and it can be gotten rid of, through effort. Some news of castiesm: Denial of entry to temple: https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/clash-over-dalits-offering-prayers-at-madhya-pradesh-shiva-temple/article66529337.ece/amp/ https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/clash-ov... Honor killing for marrying: https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/clash-over-dalits-offering-prayers-at-madhya-pradesh-shiva-temple/article66529337.ece/amp/ https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/clash-ov... https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/clash-over-dalits-offering-prayers-at-madhya-pradesh-shiva-temple/article66529337.ece/amp/ https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/clash-ov... Dalit killed for KEEPING A MOUSTACHE: https://article-14.com/post/killed-for-sporting-a-moustache-dalits-in-rajasthan-s-feudal-villages-face-rising-tide-of-caste-violence-624cf9afb65f5 https://article-14.com/post/killed-for-sporting-a-moustache-... Dalit killed for sitting in a chair in a wedding: https://article-14.com/post/killed-for-sporting-a-moustache-dalits-in-rajasthan-s-feudal-villages-face-rising-tide-of-caste-violence-624cf9afb65f5 https://article-14.com/post/killed-for-sporting-a-moustache-... Dalit killed for riding a horse: https://indianexpress.com/article/india/for-riding-horse-upper-caste-men-kill-dalit-youth-in-gujarat-5117872/ https://indianexpress.com/article/india/for-riding-horse-upp...
DrNosferatu 4y ago
Over the years I have had many Indian colleagues, however this topic has always been mute, perhaps even tabu. Ie.: the question “have you felt discriminated” results in a quick change of topic. But by the way, how do the “upper castes” see westerners?
- AverageDude 4y ago
  I divide them into three groups. The first group is those who live a dual life. Different moral compass for West and a different for back home. They put on a good facade and are often reserved when expressing their views about caste and stuff. They are the “no politics” version of your friend circle. The second group is of those people who accept it (the values) completely and practice it and even try to bring this topic back home and get ousted socially because of the brutal backlash they get. These people are usually not very vocal and try to keep it to themselves and often have Western friends more than the friends from their own community. They are also lambasted by other two groups for trivial reasons like their wives dressing in shorts or posting beach pictures on facebook or for their “accent” for sounding too American/Aussie/Canadian. This group suffers a lot. They are not Western enough for Westerns and they are not authentic enough for the other two groups. They are always a minority everywhere they go. And there’s this last group, the Western values messes up their whole thought process. They cry discrimination when it’s them at the receiving end but otherwise, West is a money making machine. Accept the monetary benefits but reject the social values of equality and individualism. They are also very vocal and supportive of the regressive values back home and often invent various arguments to support them somehow. Disclaimer: this is my anecdotal theory based on my interaction with different Indian communities.
imperio59 4y ago
I was commenting to my wife on the topic of teams/orgs prominently one race who generally don't promote or support "outsiders" to their predominant race well. For example: _AI teams primarily Chinese, where everyone speaks Chinese at team lunches and in team meetings and where non Chinese are very, very much the minority _Predominantly Israeli orgs and teams where most managers are also Israeli or of similar ethnic background, where it seems the promotion bar is lower for people of the same ethnic background as in the rest of the company. _Indian managers who are much harder on Indian employees than on non Indian employees. I've had to report an Indian manager to HR for bullying her Indian engineers before... I work in a FAANG and I see the pattern in many orgs.
BBC_Goons 4y ago
[flagged]
MPlus88 4y ago
The article says there are five main castes with thousands of sub-castes. To be precise the Dalits are not considered a caste. They are outside of the Caste system and lower than the lowest of the low, the Sudras. In practice however today's Indian has seven Caste, at least normalized in Western countries such as Europe and the US. In this revised Caste system, the Whites are at the top, higher than the Brahmins and Blacks are at the bottom, lower than the Dalits. I have witnessed firsthand how a Black colleague of mine was treated by his Indian counterparts in the IT industry. It is pretty disgusting to say the least.
- GeneologyNick 4y ago
  [dead]
amriksohata 4y ago
[flagged]

97 points by rawgabbit 4y ago

For what it's worth, caste has fortunately ceased to have meaning in a tiny number of social and geographic circles. But upper castes are in denial about how caste plays out in the rest of India. They will claim it was something in the past. Wrong. Upper castes still often whisper about so and so being a *** (impolite way of referring to someone of a lower caste), or about such and such work (e.g. cleaning dishes) being the work of a *** and not a Brahmin like themselves. Some now claim that caste was created by the British. Wrong. Al Biruni (traveler from Persia) in 1020 wrote in Tarikh Al-Hind (History of India) about how when there was a communal meal in the village, a barrier needed to be put up between people of lower castes and people of upper castes. My own personal experiences with caste (as someone exposed to it very late in life) were described here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31035615 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31035615

conductr 4y ago
It will take many generations to culturally "forget" about it. Similar to race in the USA. The movements/laws/wokeness to help move things in the right direction are all good and needed (don't get me wrong) but the cultural part of growing up hearing how your parents/grandparents talk about other people and whatnot in a private setting means that the issues will persist for some time.
gamblor956 4y ago
I've always thought it interesting that Brahmins are still considered to be the "upper" caste, considering that their caste position historically owed entirely to their caste devoting itself purely to religious worship, forswearing material possessions and comforts. A rich Brahmin is, therefore by definition, not a Brahmin...and should be regarded as an outcaste and shunned. And that's exactly what I tell them when they judge me for not having a caste.
- dalpat2023 4y ago
  [flagged]
- unmole 4y ago
  > forswearing material possessions and comforts. You're describing a sanyasin. A typical Brahmin, like anyone else is recommended to go through the usual stages of life including that of a Grihastha. And as a Grihastha, one is expected to pursue wealth and material wellbeing. I'm all for telling off casteist scum but it probably helps to be accurate.
  - gamblor956 4y ago
    If you want to be technical about it, the status of the Brahmin caste as the "uppermost" or "holiest" caste was that they were the priestly caste, and skipped the Grihastha stage, surviving by begging, through payment for religious services performed, or royal succor. (https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/manusmriti-with-the-commentary-of-medhatithi/d/doc200103.html https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/manusmriti-with-the-...) A wealthy Brahmin was therefore, by definition not a Brahmin.
    - unmole 4y ago
      I'm sorry, what? > the status of the Brahmin caste as the "uppermost" or "holiest" caste was that they were the priestly caste, and skipped the Grihastha stage, You linked to the section that specifically prescribes conduct during the Grihastha stage. That contradicts your assertion that Brahmins are supposed to skip the Grihastha stage. > A wealthy Brahmin was therefore, by definition not a Brahmin. The very section you linked to says He shall be either one possessing a granary full of grains. Accumulation of wealth is explicitly allowed.
      - gamblor956 4y ago
        I can see that reading comprehension is hard for you. The full page notes: "‘Four kinds of livelihood for householders have been described by the wise—the first is the possessing of a granary-full of grains; then the possessing of a jar-full of grains; then the possessing of not enough for the morrow; and the last is the method of the pigeon (having nothing beyond the present meal); among these the following is superior to the preceding.’ If you define this stage to mean materialistic wealth, then the Brahmins skip this stage. If you define this to mean the stage of one's life where material wealth is accumluated, then you would be correct that Brahmins pass through this stage, but only by shirking the accumulation of material wealth for religious pursuit. Therefore, by definition, a Brahmin as historically defined cannot be wealthy, anymore than a Catholic priest can bear children and still call themselves a priest.
dalpat2023 4y ago
[flagged]

Arnavion 4y ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34876082 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34876082

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

jagjotsingh 4y ago

After India got it's independence, many great people tried to abolish the caste system of India. One prominent name was Dr. B.R. Ambedkar. When he tried to uproot it through the use of law, he was faced with opposition from Hindus themselves. This system was kept in place so that a section of people can be exploited forever. I have seen places where caste doesn't matter at all in India but unfortunately this system is prevalent in the very fabric of Indian society. Even at the places where it doesn't matter you'll still hear about it even if it is just a curious query from somebody.

z3phyr 4y ago
> This system was kept in place so that a section of people can be exploited forever There is no law that upholds the caste system. Caste discrimination is criminal offense, and affirmative action is in-place. Its more of systematic societal problem, which can only be fixed if the society is large is properly integrated and educated.

princevegeta89 4y ago

I am Indian and I absolutely detest the caste system we have back home. I grew up with people from multiple castes and backgrounds and witnessed the kind of discrimination faced by seemingly lower caste people. Unfortunately, some educated yet stubborn brutes from India that end up immigrating to other countries try to spread this disease and separatism among others as well. They are the worst kind of scum India has ever produced. It is also unfortunate and silly that a lot of those entitled upper-caste people have a false sense of supremacy because of no reason other than belonging to a specific caste, even if it gave them no practical advantage. As someone who witnessed multiple events of discrimination and meaningless hatred, I was able to spread this awareness to my friends and within my social circle in hopes that they can try to help someone somewhere and help more people get that awareness. Another potentially upsetting fact is that a shocking majority of politicians who don't do any real things for the society retort to caste-based unification to gain support and votes from people belonging to certain castes. It's ridiculous that this one blinding blanket called "caste" also helps reap a lot of votes and popularity for them. There is some good news here as well - cities and new generations of youth seem to be developing maturity and also at the same time holding little to no regard for caste system anymore. I urge you all Indians to do the same and kill the fucking bitch of that caste system once and for all. Feel free to encourage more inter-cast, inter-religion marriages, and shut down people who initiate those caste-supremacy talks at any point, regardless of who they are. Good changes in society always start with not being afraid.

dalpat2023 4y ago
[flagged]
russelldjimmy 4y ago
We will not move past the “caste system” (or any other system or “-ism”) till we face our fear of being expelled for non-conformity. This is the root of it every -ism, I believe. This is difficult and will not happen in one or two generations. This cannot be regulated or incentivised into happening. It will take much more introspection from each and every one of us. It requires each of us to awaken to the suffering we bring unto ourselves and unto those around us. Till that day comes, each system and -ism will continue to thrive. I shared a personal experience on another HN thread of the same type. It might give some insight into this problem: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34876455 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34876455 Hating on a system of hate will not solve the issue. Becoming aware of the potential hate within each of us, accepting that the hate is a coping mechanism for fear, and then discarding it is the only way forward. It starts by looking within each of us, and then changing our own lives, and hoping that this sets an example for those around us, who can choose to follow and change, or may also choose to continue in their set ways.

ur-whale 4y ago

https://archive.is/rpSXB https://archive.is/rpSXB

AverageDude 4y ago

Not only caste, the hatred for minority (in India) has also made it’s way to the West. Some of them just can’t digest meeting the minorities as equals in the West. I remember reading jokes about Sikhs being taxi drivers on Twitter. Casual racism is just thrown around in conversations.

dalpat2023 4y ago
[flagged]
- AverageDude 4y ago
  I rest my case. The bigotry is not even held back here on HN. Your answers are no different from CCP supporters who say almost similar stuff.
  - Cymrukicks 4y ago
    Yeah that was crazy and so blatant, it really allows you to see how pervasive this is when its somewhere you'd think of civil like HN.
  - dang 4y ago
    We've banned that account. But since you've added a comment about HN, I want to say: it's unrealistic to expect such comments not to appear on any large, open internet forum. As anyone can create an account and post anything, anything that exists in society is going to show up here. All we can do is react once it does.
- esrh 4y ago
  Sikhs being affluent makes it ok? You do know which other group is often singled out for this right? "Everyone's made fun so it's ok" is on the same level as "I'm not racist i hate everyone." It's veiling what people actually think, and thereby not addressing the issue (or even admitting one exists, really) As for democracy: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_India https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_India But if you mean "total democracy" in the sense of unchecked oppression of the minority by the majority i think you'd be closer to the truth.

ta278 4y ago

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yinyang_in 4y ago

Read something like this would happening in right-leaning book “snakes of Ganga”. Still is first few chapter. Eventually the idea of CRT(critical race theory) is to align the “racism” in west is because of casteism in India.

yinyang_in 4y ago
Also not very sure about “origin” is this “idiotic system” as the ”word” itself doesn’t have native origin. This seems like system like “dowry” which started with good intentions & still has value but has become a “daemon” in its own. Still makes me think about origin, because origin usually has the solution to problems.
- inawarminister 4y ago
  Isn't the original word for castes Varnas? As a post-Hindu culture, we used to have the four castes (I think the Balinese still use them for marriages and stuffs), but never as strict as in India. Still, the generation that destroyed it (in the 1600s-1800s) found themselves stuck in another racist-classist caste system of Europeans on the top, "Orientals" on the middle, and natives on the bottom. The solution to that was inverting the colonial racist system for a while. Fortunately we stopped after only 2-3 generations. We still don't have perfect equality though - but much better than previously. One can not change his skin, but he can change his wealth level.
  - unmole 4y ago
    > Isn't the original word for castes Varnas? Caste is used to refer to both Varna and Jati. OP is trying to pretend that the lexical gap implies that the caste system is of foreign origin.
    - yinyang_in 4y ago
      Varna & Jati are different lexicon. Jati are like “bhel”, “Khasi”. Varna has he mentioned above. Check local language, it’s gives better perspective rather than imposed idea.

hinata08 4y ago

I'm a bit surprised by some points in the article. >“why would I even report to HR when they probably don’t even know where India is on a map?” (Much less, understand the complexity of caste.) Who are these HR people who don't try their best to get to know employees, and to make them feel comfortable on the workplace ? I thought most HR departments would include sociology graduates, or at least sensible people, who have the curiosity to understand networks of power inside the company. How do you manage a company when you can't understand the actual hierarchy and influences among workers ? Also, the case of the manager is highly inappropriate as well. He should just be fired. Lastly > “People would only want to live with roommates from their own caste,” she said. Good riddance to bad rubbish! Who would want to share a flat with morons, anyway ? You can just find actual friends at uni to share a flat. And with their mindset, I doubt they can actually settle down. I heard that my company had issues with some Indian workers who moved in, when they expected HR to find them a flat, fix their oven, arrange taxis, or run their errands,... because they were 'elite' as well. I'm in France. They have 'equality' in their motto, and are proud of an history of being at the literal cutting edge of mechanical engineering to chop all heads in a republican way : equally (but especially them of the elites). So as far as I heard, it upset some locals who were suddenly considered Untermenschen by an 'elite' guy who just moved in. But it's just an history of the past. So I'm not sure some of these guy made a long time around here.

unmole 4y ago
> heard that my company had issues with some Indian workers who moved in, when they expected HR to find them a flat This just seems to be a case of mismatch in expectations. Companies around the world provide expatriate relocation packages. The idea being expats wouldn't be familiar with how things are done in a foreign countries. I don't understand why you think this was relevant to the topic.
- kevviiinn 4y ago
  It's definitely relevant. Some upper caste individuals, from my personal experience, tend to expect things to be done for them by others. It doesn't matter what position the other person holds, the only thing that matters is the authority given by caste

TMWNN 4y ago

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unmole 4y ago
Do you want to keep posting the same comment each time?
- dang 4y ago
  Yes, that's egregious and I've added a request to stop to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34892729 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34892729.
MPlus88 4y ago
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- dang 4y ago
  You can't post slurs to HN like this. I've banned the account. Please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
dang 4y ago
Please don't take HN threads into nationalistic or ethnic flamewar. We ban accounts that do this. You unfortunately have a history of breaking the site guidelines and we've asked you to stop many times: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31749192 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31749192 (June 2022) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31749182 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31749182 (June 2022) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28409198 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28409198 (Sept 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24278328 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24278328 (Aug 2020) That's not cool. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it. Edit: Also, please stop copy-pasting the same comments: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3ATMWNN%20caste&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que.... This is particularly abusive when you're copying flamebait.

thro_caste_away 4y ago

Many people in this thread are suggesting that this evil will not be gotten rid of anytime soon. But I can tell you that casteism in India, and the degree of it, is not uniformly distributed throughout India. There are some states and regions where marrying outside your caste is signing your own death warrant, and people from so-called upper castes don't even share tables with lower caste people. But there are some areas where casteism is non-existent, and inter-caste marriage is rampant, and a small fraction of inter-caste relations are even arranged marriages. Northern states are the hotbed of castiesm where it is overt and violent and there are honor killings. In South, it is covert, and appears in form of virtues signalling, power sharing, not intermarrying, etc. The western regions have some lower form of casteism. And in the eastern regions, it is quite non-existent. I live in the state of West Bengal, and I have never seen overt casteism. Inter-caste relations and marriages are rampant. What led to this change? Buddhism had a very strong foothold here historically. Then ~500 years ago Bhakti movement that does not recognizes caste but only one's devotion was very popular. Then Calcutta and Bengal was the seat of British rule for decades. Then three decades of Communist rule up to 2010 destroyed the state's economics, but communality and casteism is low. And there are places in India, where castiesm is lower. Like Kerala. There was very popular anti-caste movement in Tamil Nadu: look up Periyar. So, casteism isn’t uniformly present in the same degree in India, and it can be gotten rid of, through effort. Some news of castiesm: Denial of entry to temple: https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/clash-over-dalits-offering-prayers-at-madhya-pradesh-shiva-temple/article66529337.ece/amp/ https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/clash-ov... Honor killing for marrying: https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/clash-over-dalits-offering-prayers-at-madhya-pradesh-shiva-temple/article66529337.ece/amp/ https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/clash-ov... https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/clash-over-dalits-offering-prayers-at-madhya-pradesh-shiva-temple/article66529337.ece/amp/ https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/clash-ov... Dalit killed for KEEPING A MOUSTACHE: https://article-14.com/post/killed-for-sporting-a-moustache-dalits-in-rajasthan-s-feudal-villages-face-rising-tide-of-caste-violence-624cf9afb65f5 https://article-14.com/post/killed-for-sporting-a-moustache-... Dalit killed for sitting in a chair in a wedding: https://article-14.com/post/killed-for-sporting-a-moustache-dalits-in-rajasthan-s-feudal-villages-face-rising-tide-of-caste-violence-624cf9afb65f5 https://article-14.com/post/killed-for-sporting-a-moustache-... Dalit killed for riding a horse: https://indianexpress.com/article/india/for-riding-horse-upper-caste-men-kill-dalit-youth-in-gujarat-5117872/ https://indianexpress.com/article/india/for-riding-horse-upp...

DrNosferatu 4y ago

Over the years I have had many Indian colleagues, however this topic has always been mute, perhaps even tabu. Ie.: the question “have you felt discriminated” results in a quick change of topic. But by the way, how do the “upper castes” see westerners?

AverageDude 4y ago
I divide them into three groups. The first group is those who live a dual life. Different moral compass for West and a different for back home. They put on a good facade and are often reserved when expressing their views about caste and stuff. They are the “no politics” version of your friend circle. The second group is of those people who accept it (the values) completely and practice it and even try to bring this topic back home and get ousted socially because of the brutal backlash they get. These people are usually not very vocal and try to keep it to themselves and often have Western friends more than the friends from their own community. They are also lambasted by other two groups for trivial reasons like their wives dressing in shorts or posting beach pictures on facebook or for their “accent” for sounding too American/Aussie/Canadian. This group suffers a lot. They are not Western enough for Westerns and they are not authentic enough for the other two groups. They are always a minority everywhere they go. And there’s this last group, the Western values messes up their whole thought process. They cry discrimination when it’s them at the receiving end but otherwise, West is a money making machine. Accept the monetary benefits but reject the social values of equality and individualism. They are also very vocal and supportive of the regressive values back home and often invent various arguments to support them somehow. Disclaimer: this is my anecdotal theory based on my interaction with different Indian communities.

imperio59 4y ago

I was commenting to my wife on the topic of teams/orgs prominently one race who generally don't promote or support "outsiders" to their predominant race well. For example: _AI teams primarily Chinese, where everyone speaks Chinese at team lunches and in team meetings and where non Chinese are very, very much the minority _Predominantly Israeli orgs and teams where most managers are also Israeli or of similar ethnic background, where it seems the promotion bar is lower for people of the same ethnic background as in the rest of the company. _Indian managers who are much harder on Indian employees than on non Indian employees. I've had to report an Indian manager to HR for bullying her Indian engineers before... I work in a FAANG and I see the pattern in many orgs.

BBC_Goons 4y ago

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MPlus88 4y ago

The article says there are five main castes with thousands of sub-castes. To be precise the Dalits are not considered a caste. They are outside of the Caste system and lower than the lowest of the low, the Sudras. In practice however today's Indian has seven Caste, at least normalized in Western countries such as Europe and the US. In this revised Caste system, the Whites are at the top, higher than the Brahmins and Blacks are at the bottom, lower than the Dalits. I have witnessed firsthand how a Black colleague of mine was treated by his Indian counterparts in the IT industry. It is pretty disgusting to say the least.

GeneologyNick 4y ago
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amriksohata 4y ago

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