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> The biggest one to me is the sex discrimination Let's review the facts. Technology firms in India have a better female to male staff ratio than the tech gia

> The biggest one to me is the sex discrimination Let's review the facts. Technology firms in India have a better female to male staff ratio than the tech giants of Silicon Valley [1]. India has a much better male-to-female ratio compared with the U.S. Engineering male-female ratio in India is 1.96 as compared with 4.61 in the U.S. [2] [1] https://www.theguardian.com/guardian-professional/2015/jun/24/why-women-in-stem-may-be-better-off-working-in-india-and-latin-america https://www.theguardian.com/guardian-professional/2015/jun/2... [2] https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/engineering-is-a-mane28099s-field-changing-a-stereotype-with-a-lesson-from-india/ https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/engineering-... What India Can Teach Silicon Valley About Its Gender Problem https://www.wired.com/2014/08/silicon-valley-sexism/ https://www.wired.com/2014/08/silicon-valley-sexism/ https://blog.hackerrank.com/which-countries-have-the-most-skilled-female-developers/ https://blog.hackerrank.com/which-countries-have-the-most-sk... The 2015 stackoverflow survey has this interesting statement: "Developers in India are 3-times more likely to be female than developers in the United States." See https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2015 https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2015 Actually it is worse than it sounds because most of the female developers in the United States are first generation immigrants from Asia and Eastern Europe.

kiratp 4y ago
A very large part of why there M:W ratio is different for immigrants than those back in India is also very sexist - parents don’t want to send their daughters abroad alone because… <sexist> reasons whereas the sons all get pushed to try and get out.
- roguecoder 4y ago
  Also because American companies take advantage of the H1B process to legally discriminate on the basis of gender. While hiring in America must provide equal opportunities, there is no requirement that American companies not discriminate when sponsoring visas.
  - roguecoder 4y ago
    It is funny to me that of all the comments I've left today this is the one that gets downvoted. It is a simple fact.
trieste92 4y ago
Just because there are more female devs doesn't imply that there isn't discrimination. You're ignoring that parent said many of the women are (conspicuously) in QA Just because there are more women in engineering doesn't imply that there isn't a pay gap, or that they're assigned to tasks of equal urgency
- ilt 4y ago
  Exactly. Indian here, in India, and here are my anecdotal experiences in decade+ experience 1. Worked with a tech team of 10 with no females, for over 8 years. Manager hired one once HR pointed it out categorically to him. Even she didn't last. Super co-incidentally, she was in QA. I should mention that she wasn't the problem. 2. Worked with design teams in 3 companies, the ratio of females was never more than 2:8 with respect to males. 3. Newly married women generally find it really hard to get back into workforce since it is expected that they will soon be planning a child and hence require a paid maternity leave. HR is explicity told about this by management. 4. Even unmarried ones are usually asked about their marriage plans when getting interviewed. I would like to add, there is a dearth of skilled talent too with respect to women. Along with the lot less opportunities available to women for higher education, lot many women in India only join workforce to get more qualified for arranged marriages - "having working life" is somehow always in demand, higher skills or salaries do not matter to suitors usually - it is usually expected in both families that males will likely earn more than females so much so that the ones looking for prospective brides do not go for ones earning more than the prospective groom - something that perhaps works as a motivation for some women to not to vie for higher compensation jobs. This of course ends up making them more dependent on their spouses for money matters. Again, this is not a commentary on all women or all men either but just a perspective of someone on the ground, in India.
Manuel_D 4y ago
> Technology firms in India have a better female to male staff ratio than the tech giants of Silicon Valley Broadly speaking, closer gender representation in STEM is positively correlated with sexist discrimination counterintuitive though it may seem: https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/02/the-more-gender-equality-the-fewer-women-in-stem/553592/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/02/the-more...
- yesenadam 4y ago
  Thanks. TLDR: "women in countries with higher gender inequality are simply seeking the clearest possible path to financial freedom. And typically, that path leads through STEM professions."
  - petilon 4y ago
    So the reason there are fewer women in CS in the US is because women enjoy gender equality here? That's so twisted!
    - cld8483 4y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-equality_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-equality_paradox
    - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
      It is/was easier to become financially independent in the states without a STEM degree, although I think it is becoming harder as inflation demands $300k/year FAANG salaries.
    - roguecoder 4y ago
      Software Development is competing with all the other possible fields out there for talented people. When we fail to address or mitigate sexism, our profession loses out to the professions that do.
      - 4y ago
makeitdouble 4y ago
It's always difficult to compare cross countries: for instance it's prettty usual for bigger companies in the US/EU to outsource whole areas that are low paying with high turn over to avoid dealing with the HR. Facebook is famous for outsourcing content moderation, but I'd expect QA and other lower pay "engineering" jobs to be outsourcedas well. If Indian companies have incentives to keep them in-house, that simple structural difference would completley chaange the numbers. I'm not sure we havr "facts" (numbers) that are immune to these discrepancies.

kiratp 4y ago

A very large part of why there M:W ratio is different for immigrants than those back in India is also very sexist - parents don’t want to send their daughters abroad alone because… <sexist> reasons whereas the sons all get pushed to try and get out.

roguecoder 4y ago
Also because American companies take advantage of the H1B process to legally discriminate on the basis of gender. While hiring in America must provide equal opportunities, there is no requirement that American companies not discriminate when sponsoring visas.
- roguecoder 4y ago
  It is funny to me that of all the comments I've left today this is the one that gets downvoted. It is a simple fact.

trieste92 4y ago

Just because there are more female devs doesn't imply that there isn't discrimination. You're ignoring that parent said many of the women are (conspicuously) in QA Just because there are more women in engineering doesn't imply that there isn't a pay gap, or that they're assigned to tasks of equal urgency

ilt 4y ago
Exactly. Indian here, in India, and here are my anecdotal experiences in decade+ experience 1. Worked with a tech team of 10 with no females, for over 8 years. Manager hired one once HR pointed it out categorically to him. Even she didn't last. Super co-incidentally, she was in QA. I should mention that she wasn't the problem. 2. Worked with design teams in 3 companies, the ratio of females was never more than 2:8 with respect to males. 3. Newly married women generally find it really hard to get back into workforce since it is expected that they will soon be planning a child and hence require a paid maternity leave. HR is explicity told about this by management. 4. Even unmarried ones are usually asked about their marriage plans when getting interviewed. I would like to add, there is a dearth of skilled talent too with respect to women. Along with the lot less opportunities available to women for higher education, lot many women in India only join workforce to get more qualified for arranged marriages - "having working life" is somehow always in demand, higher skills or salaries do not matter to suitors usually - it is usually expected in both families that males will likely earn more than females so much so that the ones looking for prospective brides do not go for ones earning more than the prospective groom - something that perhaps works as a motivation for some women to not to vie for higher compensation jobs. This of course ends up making them more dependent on their spouses for money matters. Again, this is not a commentary on all women or all men either but just a perspective of someone on the ground, in India.

Manuel_D 4y ago

> Technology firms in India have a better female to male staff ratio than the tech giants of Silicon Valley Broadly speaking, closer gender representation in STEM is positively correlated with sexist discrimination counterintuitive though it may seem: https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/02/the-more-gender-equality-the-fewer-women-in-stem/553592/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/02/the-more...

yesenadam 4y ago
Thanks. TLDR: "women in countries with higher gender inequality are simply seeking the clearest possible path to financial freedom. And typically, that path leads through STEM professions."
- petilon 4y ago
  So the reason there are fewer women in CS in the US is because women enjoy gender equality here? That's so twisted!
  - cld8483 4y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-equality_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-equality_paradox
  - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
    It is/was easier to become financially independent in the states without a STEM degree, although I think it is becoming harder as inflation demands $300k/year FAANG salaries.
  - roguecoder 4y ago
    Software Development is competing with all the other possible fields out there for talented people. When we fail to address or mitigate sexism, our profession loses out to the professions that do.
    - 4y ago

makeitdouble 4y ago

It's always difficult to compare cross countries: for instance it's prettty usual for bigger companies in the US/EU to outsource whole areas that are low paying with high turn over to avoid dealing with the HR. Facebook is famous for outsourcing content moderation, but I'd expect QA and other lower pay "engineering" jobs to be outsourcedas well. If Indian companies have incentives to keep them in-house, that simple structural difference would completley chaange the numbers. I'm not sure we havr "facts" (numbers) that are immune to these discrepancies.