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> I try to talk to my Indian colleagues about this and they stay extremely tight lipped about this for a multitude of reasons. I notice this too. It's like som

> I try to talk to my Indian colleagues about this and they stay extremely tight lipped about this for a multitude of reasons. I notice this too. It's like someone brings up caste discrimination online (somewhere like teamblind) and a bunch of people come out of nowhere and say "that isn't real". Isn't very convincing to say the least

petilon 4y ago
That's because for the most part it's not real. See: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/16/opinion/sunday/caste-is-not-past.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/16/opinion/sunday/caste-is-no...
- trieste92 4y ago
  ??? > "the vast majority of high paying jobs are still in the hands of the top three castes."
- flandish 4y ago
  An Op-Ed in the nytimes is no different than a blog on geocities. Not. Real. Fact.
- croes 4y ago
  An opinion article from 2013 is hardly counter evidence.
- agarren 4y ago
  An op-ed piece from the NY Times? Not what I would consider an authoritative source. The author says caste discrimination is illegal, but goes onto suggest that other than people avoiding discussing the topic, and aside from a few high profile and moderately successful social initiatives, it’s still very much a thing. The piece doesn’t quite support your assertion, e.g.: > As India transforms, one might expect caste to dissolve and disappear, but that is not happening. Instead, caste is making its presence felt in ways similar to race in modern America: less important now in jobs and education, but vibrantly alive when it comes to two significant societal markers — marriage and politics… > Inter-caste marriages in India are on the rise but still tend to be the province of the liberal few. For much of the country, with its penchant for arranged marriages and close family ties, caste is still a primary determinant in choosing a spouse… …and a bit more. Why do you believe caste discrimination isn’t real? That seems like a strong stance.
  - nindalf 4y ago
    I think for most part, this is what Indians want to believe. Even the folks on this thread. When I was a kid in school I didn't think the caste system existed in "modern" India because it wasn't something I spent any time thinking about. Caste and religion didn't matter to me in my every day interactions, didn't factor into any decisions I made, therefore it didn't matter to others either. Or so I thought. That's privilege speaking. These things didn't matter to me because I had never suffered because of it. But they do exist, and Indians need to accept that. Why you might find people being defensive on this thread is that it might feel galling to be talked down to by Americans on this subject. The Indians on this thread, like me, have never thought about caste and yet they’re being told to stop being casteist, to fight casteism etc by people who found out about it 10 minutes ago. For others, being told about casteism makes them feel bad because it’s a reminder that India isn’t as great as it could be, it’s not the land of equality and opportunity that we’d like to believe it is. Not saying they’re right to feel that way, because we must do our part regardless of what others say. But it just gives you their perspective, so you might understand.
    - foogazi 4y ago
      > it’s not the land of equality and opportunity that we’d like to believe it is yet, right ? Just so many Indians in the US makes this evident to me Anyway, nobody likes others shiting on their country, but no need to gaslight or minimize
quadrifoliate 4y ago
Imagine that people in Europe were afraid of American immigrants suddenly pulling a gun on them because they (the Europeans) had read a few articles about gun violence in the US. That's how a lot of us Indians feel when Americans talk about caste discrimination. Yes, it is absolutely real. No, you probably don't understand at all how it works. It is kind of darkly hilarious to me that a comment from some guy saying "There are lots of Indians in Seattle, and they seem to stick together. I really don't know about the dynamics of the caste system..." is the second most upvoted comment on this discussion. Yes, it is exhausting for us to teach you about thousands of years of history and how they contributed to discrimination. Go read up a few history books if you really want to know.
- nradov 4y ago
  Which history books would you recommend?
  - quadrifoliate 4y ago
    Reading about Dr. B.R. Ambedkar, who led reforms against casteism and wrote the equivalent of affirmative action into the Indian Constitution is probably a good start. He was the Indian equivalent of Dr. Martin Luther King. His writings are mostly in English and present a deep study of the subject, especially given that it affected him personally. ---------------------------------------- [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._R._Ambedkar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._R._Ambedkar
    - unmole 4y ago
      > wrote the equivalent of affirmative action into the Indian Constitution Reservations are not equivalent to affirmative action in America. Dr. Ambedkar was the Chairman of Constitutional Drafting Committee. In popular imagination, he is often called the author of the Indian constitution. Reservations are a small part of it. > He was the Indian equivalent of Dr. Martin Luther King. I understand that you are trying to make the context relatable to an American audience but I find this framing rather grating. I don't mean any disrespect to Dr. King but this is selling Dr. Ambedkar short.
philliphaydon 4y ago
Living in Singapore for 10 years I talked to quite a few people from India living in Singapore. It seems that it’s an older generation thing. The younger ones don’t care about caste at all but if their parents ask about their friends they will lie, because their parents care a lot about caste. And while caste is illegal in India. It’s such a big country it’s difficult to enforce. So it’s still rampant outside of the big cities. I used to donate to a charity which builds wells in India for small villages to ensure they have safe clean drinking water. They supply the materials but everyone in the village must contribute to building it and everyone must have access regardless of caste. If the village does not agree they won’t help. I can’t remember what the charity was called :(
- anaganisk 4y ago
  Now way its an old generation thing? I've seen "gang wars" among young adults of different castes in reputed Indian universities, located in cities. I have first hand experience with people who chose friends based on caste. And caste is not illegal in India discrimination is, but politicians here are mostly caste mongerers and win elections.
  - shauryamanu 4y ago
    reputed ? sure they're?
    - anaganisk 4y ago
      I can give you the names, and they will feature in the top 50.
    - unmole 4y ago
      I know of six universities where what the GP said is true and all six of them made it here: https://www.nirfindia.org/2022/UniversityRanking.html https://www.nirfindia.org/2022/UniversityRanking.html
  - philliphaydon 4y ago
    > And caste is not illegal in India discrimination is The caste system was outlawed ages ago. It very much is illegal.
belltaco 4y ago
Lets say someone from the EU who's never been to the US keeps telling you, an American, "Don't go outdoors or you might be a victim of a mass shooting like I see in the news almost every day", and you say "that doesn't reflect the reality here", and they say "Isn't very convincing to say the least". How can I or anyone prove a negative? I can only offer my life experiences as a non-high caste Indian whose both sides of the family eat meat, that caste never ever comes up with any of my Indian coworkers, managers, friends or family. Nor has anyone ever mentioned to me that they experienced issues because of their caste. In rural India and among older folks caste is more important, but in America it's pretty rare for people to care about caste. Any discrimination must be dealt with, but I don't like the generalization on HN than Indians are casteist.
- trieste92 4y ago
  > "Don't go outdoors or you might be a victim of a mass shooting like I see in the news almost every day", and you say "that doesn't reflect the reality here" The initial example I gave was this: "caste discrimination exists". The response I see is "oh no that isn't real". That's like someone saying "mass shootings occur in the USA" and me saying "oh no those aren't real" A white American could say "racism is a thing of the past or is an issue somewhere else, because I don't experience it on a day to day basis". That's what your reply makes me think of > How can I or anyone prove a negative? I can only offer my life experiences You're trying to use your own experience to speak on someone else's behalf with respect to discrimination that you've admitted to never experiencing. Even trying to prove a negative in this context is missing the point entirely
  - RestlessMind 4y ago
    Then is it fair to say that caste discrimination in India is akin to mass shootings in the US? In that they happen, but not a big deal for the rest of the society? Otherwise, something would have happened by now.
- quadrifoliate 4y ago
  > Any discrimination must be dealt with, but I don't like the generalization on HN than Indians are casteist. You get it. This is exactly the fear I have -- that clueless Americans will use an "Indians are casteist" excuse to justify not hiring us to management or positions of power. There are already "keep it in India" comments on these threads that are going unmoderated, which would be totally unacceptable in any other context.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
unmole 4y ago
> somewhere like teamblind I'd posit that forming an opinion based on what you read on Blind isn't going to be accurate let alone nuanced.

petilon 4y ago

That's because for the most part it's not real. See: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/16/opinion/sunday/caste-is-not-past.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/16/opinion/sunday/caste-is-no...

trieste92 4y ago
??? > "the vast majority of high paying jobs are still in the hands of the top three castes."
flandish 4y ago
An Op-Ed in the nytimes is no different than a blog on geocities. Not. Real. Fact.
croes 4y ago
An opinion article from 2013 is hardly counter evidence.
agarren 4y ago
An op-ed piece from the NY Times? Not what I would consider an authoritative source. The author says caste discrimination is illegal, but goes onto suggest that other than people avoiding discussing the topic, and aside from a few high profile and moderately successful social initiatives, it’s still very much a thing. The piece doesn’t quite support your assertion, e.g.: > As India transforms, one might expect caste to dissolve and disappear, but that is not happening. Instead, caste is making its presence felt in ways similar to race in modern America: less important now in jobs and education, but vibrantly alive when it comes to two significant societal markers — marriage and politics… > Inter-caste marriages in India are on the rise but still tend to be the province of the liberal few. For much of the country, with its penchant for arranged marriages and close family ties, caste is still a primary determinant in choosing a spouse… …and a bit more. Why do you believe caste discrimination isn’t real? That seems like a strong stance.
- nindalf 4y ago
  I think for most part, this is what Indians want to believe. Even the folks on this thread. When I was a kid in school I didn't think the caste system existed in "modern" India because it wasn't something I spent any time thinking about. Caste and religion didn't matter to me in my every day interactions, didn't factor into any decisions I made, therefore it didn't matter to others either. Or so I thought. That's privilege speaking. These things didn't matter to me because I had never suffered because of it. But they do exist, and Indians need to accept that. Why you might find people being defensive on this thread is that it might feel galling to be talked down to by Americans on this subject. The Indians on this thread, like me, have never thought about caste and yet they’re being told to stop being casteist, to fight casteism etc by people who found out about it 10 minutes ago. For others, being told about casteism makes them feel bad because it’s a reminder that India isn’t as great as it could be, it’s not the land of equality and opportunity that we’d like to believe it is. Not saying they’re right to feel that way, because we must do our part regardless of what others say. But it just gives you their perspective, so you might understand.
  - foogazi 4y ago
    > it’s not the land of equality and opportunity that we’d like to believe it is yet, right ? Just so many Indians in the US makes this evident to me Anyway, nobody likes others shiting on their country, but no need to gaslight or minimize

quadrifoliate 4y ago

Imagine that people in Europe were afraid of American immigrants suddenly pulling a gun on them because they (the Europeans) had read a few articles about gun violence in the US. That's how a lot of us Indians feel when Americans talk about caste discrimination. Yes, it is absolutely real. No, you probably don't understand at all how it works. It is kind of darkly hilarious to me that a comment from some guy saying "There are lots of Indians in Seattle, and they seem to stick together. I really don't know about the dynamics of the caste system..." is the second most upvoted comment on this discussion. Yes, it is exhausting for us to teach you about thousands of years of history and how they contributed to discrimination. Go read up a few history books if you really want to know.

nradov 4y ago
Which history books would you recommend?
- quadrifoliate 4y ago
  Reading about Dr. B.R. Ambedkar, who led reforms against casteism and wrote the equivalent of affirmative action into the Indian Constitution is probably a good start. He was the Indian equivalent of Dr. Martin Luther King. His writings are mostly in English and present a deep study of the subject, especially given that it affected him personally. ---------------------------------------- [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._R._Ambedkar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._R._Ambedkar
  - unmole 4y ago
    > wrote the equivalent of affirmative action into the Indian Constitution Reservations are not equivalent to affirmative action in America. Dr. Ambedkar was the Chairman of Constitutional Drafting Committee. In popular imagination, he is often called the author of the Indian constitution. Reservations are a small part of it. > He was the Indian equivalent of Dr. Martin Luther King. I understand that you are trying to make the context relatable to an American audience but I find this framing rather grating. I don't mean any disrespect to Dr. King but this is selling Dr. Ambedkar short.

philliphaydon 4y ago

Living in Singapore for 10 years I talked to quite a few people from India living in Singapore. It seems that it’s an older generation thing. The younger ones don’t care about caste at all but if their parents ask about their friends they will lie, because their parents care a lot about caste. And while caste is illegal in India. It’s such a big country it’s difficult to enforce. So it’s still rampant outside of the big cities. I used to donate to a charity which builds wells in India for small villages to ensure they have safe clean drinking water. They supply the materials but everyone in the village must contribute to building it and everyone must have access regardless of caste. If the village does not agree they won’t help. I can’t remember what the charity was called :(

anaganisk 4y ago
Now way its an old generation thing? I've seen "gang wars" among young adults of different castes in reputed Indian universities, located in cities. I have first hand experience with people who chose friends based on caste. And caste is not illegal in India discrimination is, but politicians here are mostly caste mongerers and win elections.
- shauryamanu 4y ago
  reputed ? sure they're?
  - anaganisk 4y ago
    I can give you the names, and they will feature in the top 50.
  - unmole 4y ago
    I know of six universities where what the GP said is true and all six of them made it here: https://www.nirfindia.org/2022/UniversityRanking.html https://www.nirfindia.org/2022/UniversityRanking.html
- philliphaydon 4y ago
  > And caste is not illegal in India discrimination is The caste system was outlawed ages ago. It very much is illegal.

belltaco 4y ago

Lets say someone from the EU who's never been to the US keeps telling you, an American, "Don't go outdoors or you might be a victim of a mass shooting like I see in the news almost every day", and you say "that doesn't reflect the reality here", and they say "Isn't very convincing to say the least". How can I or anyone prove a negative? I can only offer my life experiences as a non-high caste Indian whose both sides of the family eat meat, that caste never ever comes up with any of my Indian coworkers, managers, friends or family. Nor has anyone ever mentioned to me that they experienced issues because of their caste. In rural India and among older folks caste is more important, but in America it's pretty rare for people to care about caste. Any discrimination must be dealt with, but I don't like the generalization on HN than Indians are casteist.

trieste92 4y ago
> "Don't go outdoors or you might be a victim of a mass shooting like I see in the news almost every day", and you say "that doesn't reflect the reality here" The initial example I gave was this: "caste discrimination exists". The response I see is "oh no that isn't real". That's like someone saying "mass shootings occur in the USA" and me saying "oh no those aren't real" A white American could say "racism is a thing of the past or is an issue somewhere else, because I don't experience it on a day to day basis". That's what your reply makes me think of > How can I or anyone prove a negative? I can only offer my life experiences You're trying to use your own experience to speak on someone else's behalf with respect to discrimination that you've admitted to never experiencing. Even trying to prove a negative in this context is missing the point entirely
- RestlessMind 4y ago
  Then is it fair to say that caste discrimination in India is akin to mass shootings in the US? In that they happen, but not a big deal for the rest of the society? Otherwise, something would have happened by now.
quadrifoliate 4y ago
> Any discrimination must be dealt with, but I don't like the generalization on HN than Indians are casteist. You get it. This is exactly the fear I have -- that clueless Americans will use an "Indians are casteist" excuse to justify not hiring us to management or positions of power. There are already "keep it in India" comments on these threads that are going unmoderated, which would be totally unacceptable in any other context.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

unmole 4y ago

> somewhere like teamblind I'd posit that forming an opinion based on what you read on Blind isn't going to be accurate let alone nuanced.