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I keep hearing this but it doesn't resonate against my experience. My family came to the US in the early 90's with zero dollars, but now we're doing well. The

I keep hearing this but it doesn't resonate against my experience. My family came to the US in the early 90's with zero dollars, but now we're doing well. The difference between us and those who didn't make it out of the neighborhood was what we did with the little money and time we had. Basic things like figuring out how to get a bank account open vs paying a check cashing fee, things add up quickly. If you don't figure that stuff out, you're screwed. I find it off for poverty-advocates to get indignant when poverty education comes up, because they don't understand how much ignorance/lack of interest/lack of skill exists in those communities, and how much of a headwind that is. Forget things like encouraging your kids to study in school, apply for competitive courses - etc. Even if your kids are capable of that, if you don't know to push them, you perpetuate your poverty. In contrast to say Asian immigrants who drive their kids to excel and go from poverty to 1% in one generation. Any coaching that helps people recognize and take advantage of the resources and opportunities in front of them - if it actually sticks - is super valuable.

pydry 4y ago
Very often if you diff "poor successful immigrant" stories to the stories of poor people who grew up in the same city, the key difference was they relied on bonds of trust between them and other immigrants from their country that helped give them a leg up. I was pretty shocked to discover that one of my friends (2nd gen asian immigrant in amsterdam) had parents who even tapped large interest free loans, and that the community largely expected this kind of help to be given freely. >I find it off for poverty-advocates to get indignant when poverty education comes up Yeah, coz it's well known to be ineffective (by design, pretty much), and is almost universally used by banks and politicians fronting for banks to try and get the heat off their backs and let them keep raking in profits unimpeded. Stuff like interest rate caps and banning payday lending, on the other hand, is very effective but impedes profits. The goal of corporate lobbyists is to present solutions (usually faux) that appear genuine but don't impede profits.
- kortilla 4y ago
  Banks don’t conduct payday loans and make very little from the poor. The payday loan industry != banking industry.
- xyzelement 4y ago
  // Yeah, coz it's well known to be ineffective Hmm, the argument I always hear is "the poor don't need to be taught, they need (some short term thing that won't scale)" If you want to argue the effectiveness of various education methods, I am not down to that level of nuance. Obviously if the education is ineffective, that's a problem, it's still necessary.
- bko 4y ago
  Lower socioeconomic class stay in the neighborhood that they grew up in and are much more likely to be close to parents and siblings. This is a much stronger network than some immigrant community of strangers based on country of origin. And if the benefits of networks based on country of origin were so powerful you'd expect places with a large percent of South American or Caribbean countries to be wealthy. But if you look at small Haitian or Dominican you don't see the same kind of upward mobility compared to asian neighborhoods.
  - pydry 4y ago
    >Lower socioeconomic class stay in the neighborhood that they grew up in and are much more likely to be close to parents and siblings. This is a much stronger network than some immigrant community of strangers based on country of origin. Are you equating the economic potential of being able to tap a large interest free loan from your community and having an equally poor sibling?
    - bko 4y ago
      I'm an immigrant to the US. My parents had a network of people from the same country (European). It was a good resource of friends and babysitting for my parents, but i never heard of anyone giving large interest free loans to a poor stranger just because they came from the same country. But maybe that's the norm for asian communities. Btw i wouldn't discount free childcare and is honestly worth more than an interest free loan. If you can help share childcare you can work many more hours
      - O__________O 4y ago
        Forget the name for it, but there is community based loan concept where everyone pitches in a little money to give one individual a loan based on luck of the draw with the pretext that in future prior past contributors have better odds of winning. Needless to say, frequently is a scam. EDIT: Here are examples: https://www.google.com/search?q=site:wikipedia.org+informal+loan+club https://www.google.com/search?q=site:wikipedia.org+informal+...
- Bootvis 4y ago
  In the case of the Netherlands, interest rate caps are already in place and payday loans don't exist. Furthermore, it's relatively easy to get help (but not fun) when you're bankrupt and to get out of this bankruptcy with a clean sheet after 5 years. Currently there is a law in the works vetted by the House of Representative to reduce this period.
  - pydry 4y ago
    Perhaps not but the Netherlands has ridiculous levels of wealth inequality. On paper it's worse than the US.
    - Bootvis 4y ago
      You have never been to the Netherlands, have you? Because those statistics you hint at are misleading at best.
      - dangwhy 4y ago
        > You have never been to the Netherlands, have you? How does merely visiting Netherlands tell a person that inequality stats are misleading ?
        Bootvis 4y ago
        You walk around and see how people live and that the difference between the worst neighborhoods is much smaller than the US or even France. Another data point is that you will also see relatively little homeless people (compared to San Francisco for example).
      - dstick 4y ago
        Well it's sorta true, but the important difference is that the bottom poverty line is higher than in the US, and we do have better social security. Still, the gap is growing. Though recent changes in real-estate legislation are putting a stop to that. Yes, there are the mega rich, entrepreneurs and whatnot. Like it or not, they do participate in society in a way that moves the needle. Means for the slightly-better-off middle class to exploit the lower class through rent are being thwarted, thankfully. They just allow one half of the population to exploit the other half without providing any tangible benefit in return. Source: I'm born in, and living in, the Netherlands.
- O__________O 4y ago
  As a single counter experience, I have repeatedly witnessed established immigrants exploit new immigrants from the same cultural backgrounds. Yes, some people get lucky and find meaningfully help, but others don’t.
  - pydry 4y ago
    Of course. Rags to riches and "pulling oneself up by one's bootstraps" anecdotes are mired in survivorship bias almost by definition.
- troupe 4y ago
  Some of the organizations I've seen in the US to provide "life coaching" for people in poverty are trying to create those types of relationships. Their logic is that the culture surrounding people in poverty tends to make it harder to do the types of things that would help them get out of poverty.
dangwhy 4y ago
> My family came to the US in the early 90's with zero dollars, but now we're doing well. May I ask what was the path to financial well being ? Coming to US with zero dollars is pretty common and doesn't really tell the whole picture. You might come with things that can be converted to money later like an education, family connections ect. I came to us with no money but I had education for in demand jobs. Lots of patels from india come to usa with zero dollars but they have family connections that get them started on a path to setting up a business. We are close to a patel family that came to usa with zero dollars but grinded for years to finally become business owners. They are insane hardworkers but having that family connection that set them up on the path was critical imo.
- xyzelement 4y ago
  I was a kid. My family came with the value of education and a lot of common sense and frugality. That's the point - it's things that can be taught and learned. The person I am responding to is acting like an attempt to teach poor people anything is evil.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
phphphphp 4y ago
The disadvantageous behaviour you describe exists at every level. There’s wealthy families who couldn’t care less about any of the things you describe — most generational wealth is lost within a few generations! There’s also a selection bias amongst immigrants like yourself: immigrant families have already made the biggest leap, they’ve uprooted their family and gone to a new country, and so they’re already on the path towards all of the behaviours you describe — they didn’t arrive in America and then decide that education was the path forwards, they arrived in America with optimism and gusto and were ready to do whatever it takes to realise their dreams. Many people just want to live a life, they don’t want to pursue greatness at all costs. Many of those people are in poverty, many of those people are rich. Many people are not suited to a life of intense pressure to succeed. The problem of poverty education as the solution to poverty is that it is built on the idea that education is why people are in poverty, and that if they just knew a bit more than they’d be doing great… but that’s not really true, poverty is a trap, education cannot save you from the poverty trap. The value of support for people in poverty is that it gives them a better chance to escape poverty and for many people, education is a part of that support, but it’s important to understand that the solution to poverty is not education about how to open a checking account, it’s the whole spectrum of support from financial to education. Give every person in poverty a million dollars, and many will escape poverty and go on to live very prosperous lives — no education needed.
- jimbokun 4y ago
  "Give every person in poverty a million dollars..." and you will kick off hyperinflation because you will need to print so much currency to make that a reality it will devalue all of the existing dollars in circulation.
  - phphphphp 4y ago
    it's not a policy suggestion, it's a rhetorical device. If you pick a person in poverty, and give them a million dollars, they'll probably escape poverty and probably go on to live a prosperous life because poverty is caused by money, not education. Education helps people escape poverty because education can be used to earn money, not because knowing how to open a bank account is the path to salvation. There are lots of smart and well educated and successful people who are terrible with money but never end up in poverty because they have enough money to absorb the mistakes.
clnq 4y ago
That's good to hear. I didn't mean to be indignant, I just don't have a nuanced understanding of this. So thanks for the insights.

pydry 4y ago

Very often if you diff "poor successful immigrant" stories to the stories of poor people who grew up in the same city, the key difference was they relied on bonds of trust between them and other immigrants from their country that helped give them a leg up. I was pretty shocked to discover that one of my friends (2nd gen asian immigrant in amsterdam) had parents who even tapped large interest free loans, and that the community largely expected this kind of help to be given freely. >I find it off for poverty-advocates to get indignant when poverty education comes up Yeah, coz it's well known to be ineffective (by design, pretty much), and is almost universally used by banks and politicians fronting for banks to try and get the heat off their backs and let them keep raking in profits unimpeded. Stuff like interest rate caps and banning payday lending, on the other hand, is very effective but impedes profits. The goal of corporate lobbyists is to present solutions (usually faux) that appear genuine but don't impede profits.

kortilla 4y ago
Banks don’t conduct payday loans and make very little from the poor. The payday loan industry != banking industry.
xyzelement 4y ago
// Yeah, coz it's well known to be ineffective Hmm, the argument I always hear is "the poor don't need to be taught, they need (some short term thing that won't scale)" If you want to argue the effectiveness of various education methods, I am not down to that level of nuance. Obviously if the education is ineffective, that's a problem, it's still necessary.
bko 4y ago
Lower socioeconomic class stay in the neighborhood that they grew up in and are much more likely to be close to parents and siblings. This is a much stronger network than some immigrant community of strangers based on country of origin. And if the benefits of networks based on country of origin were so powerful you'd expect places with a large percent of South American or Caribbean countries to be wealthy. But if you look at small Haitian or Dominican you don't see the same kind of upward mobility compared to asian neighborhoods.
- pydry 4y ago
  >Lower socioeconomic class stay in the neighborhood that they grew up in and are much more likely to be close to parents and siblings. This is a much stronger network than some immigrant community of strangers based on country of origin. Are you equating the economic potential of being able to tap a large interest free loan from your community and having an equally poor sibling?
  - bko 4y ago
    I'm an immigrant to the US. My parents had a network of people from the same country (European). It was a good resource of friends and babysitting for my parents, but i never heard of anyone giving large interest free loans to a poor stranger just because they came from the same country. But maybe that's the norm for asian communities. Btw i wouldn't discount free childcare and is honestly worth more than an interest free loan. If you can help share childcare you can work many more hours
    - O__________O 4y ago
      Forget the name for it, but there is community based loan concept where everyone pitches in a little money to give one individual a loan based on luck of the draw with the pretext that in future prior past contributors have better odds of winning. Needless to say, frequently is a scam. EDIT: Here are examples: https://www.google.com/search?q=site:wikipedia.org+informal+loan+club https://www.google.com/search?q=site:wikipedia.org+informal+...
Bootvis 4y ago
In the case of the Netherlands, interest rate caps are already in place and payday loans don't exist. Furthermore, it's relatively easy to get help (but not fun) when you're bankrupt and to get out of this bankruptcy with a clean sheet after 5 years. Currently there is a law in the works vetted by the House of Representative to reduce this period.
- pydry 4y ago
  Perhaps not but the Netherlands has ridiculous levels of wealth inequality. On paper it's worse than the US.
  - Bootvis 4y ago
    You have never been to the Netherlands, have you? Because those statistics you hint at are misleading at best.
    - dangwhy 4y ago
      > You have never been to the Netherlands, have you? How does merely visiting Netherlands tell a person that inequality stats are misleading ?
      - Bootvis 4y ago
        You walk around and see how people live and that the difference between the worst neighborhoods is much smaller than the US or even France. Another data point is that you will also see relatively little homeless people (compared to San Francisco for example).
    - dstick 4y ago
      Well it's sorta true, but the important difference is that the bottom poverty line is higher than in the US, and we do have better social security. Still, the gap is growing. Though recent changes in real-estate legislation are putting a stop to that. Yes, there are the mega rich, entrepreneurs and whatnot. Like it or not, they do participate in society in a way that moves the needle. Means for the slightly-better-off middle class to exploit the lower class through rent are being thwarted, thankfully. They just allow one half of the population to exploit the other half without providing any tangible benefit in return. Source: I'm born in, and living in, the Netherlands.
O__________O 4y ago
As a single counter experience, I have repeatedly witnessed established immigrants exploit new immigrants from the same cultural backgrounds. Yes, some people get lucky and find meaningfully help, but others don’t.
- pydry 4y ago
  Of course. Rags to riches and "pulling oneself up by one's bootstraps" anecdotes are mired in survivorship bias almost by definition.
troupe 4y ago
Some of the organizations I've seen in the US to provide "life coaching" for people in poverty are trying to create those types of relationships. Their logic is that the culture surrounding people in poverty tends to make it harder to do the types of things that would help them get out of poverty.

dangwhy 4y ago

> My family came to the US in the early 90's with zero dollars, but now we're doing well. May I ask what was the path to financial well being ? Coming to US with zero dollars is pretty common and doesn't really tell the whole picture. You might come with things that can be converted to money later like an education, family connections ect. I came to us with no money but I had education for in demand jobs. Lots of patels from india come to usa with zero dollars but they have family connections that get them started on a path to setting up a business. We are close to a patel family that came to usa with zero dollars but grinded for years to finally become business owners. They are insane hardworkers but having that family connection that set them up on the path was critical imo.

xyzelement 4y ago
I was a kid. My family came with the value of education and a lot of common sense and frugality. That's the point - it's things that can be taught and learned. The person I am responding to is acting like an attempt to teach poor people anything is evil.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

phphphphp 4y ago

The disadvantageous behaviour you describe exists at every level. There’s wealthy families who couldn’t care less about any of the things you describe — most generational wealth is lost within a few generations! There’s also a selection bias amongst immigrants like yourself: immigrant families have already made the biggest leap, they’ve uprooted their family and gone to a new country, and so they’re already on the path towards all of the behaviours you describe — they didn’t arrive in America and then decide that education was the path forwards, they arrived in America with optimism and gusto and were ready to do whatever it takes to realise their dreams. Many people just want to live a life, they don’t want to pursue greatness at all costs. Many of those people are in poverty, many of those people are rich. Many people are not suited to a life of intense pressure to succeed. The problem of poverty education as the solution to poverty is that it is built on the idea that education is why people are in poverty, and that if they just knew a bit more than they’d be doing great… but that’s not really true, poverty is a trap, education cannot save you from the poverty trap. The value of support for people in poverty is that it gives them a better chance to escape poverty and for many people, education is a part of that support, but it’s important to understand that the solution to poverty is not education about how to open a checking account, it’s the whole spectrum of support from financial to education. Give every person in poverty a million dollars, and many will escape poverty and go on to live very prosperous lives — no education needed.

jimbokun 4y ago
"Give every person in poverty a million dollars..." and you will kick off hyperinflation because you will need to print so much currency to make that a reality it will devalue all of the existing dollars in circulation.
- phphphphp 4y ago
  it's not a policy suggestion, it's a rhetorical device. If you pick a person in poverty, and give them a million dollars, they'll probably escape poverty and probably go on to live a prosperous life because poverty is caused by money, not education. Education helps people escape poverty because education can be used to earn money, not because knowing how to open a bank account is the path to salvation. There are lots of smart and well educated and successful people who are terrible with money but never end up in poverty because they have enough money to absorb the mistakes.

clnq 4y ago

That's good to hear. I didn't mean to be indignant, I just don't have a nuanced understanding of this. So thanks for the insights.