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This is the opposite of my experience: one of the main reasons I prefer to use Common Lisp and Clojure over any other language is that the tooling is so much be

This is the opposite of my experience: one of the main reasons I prefer to use Common Lisp and Clojure over any other language is that the tooling is so much better (emacs + SLIME [CL] or Cider [Clojure]). The only real competitors, imo, are SmallTalk and Prolog environments. However, part of this is the paradigm is completely different and it took me a bit of time to learn what made the tooling great.

askonomm 4y ago
Yeah, for Emacs users I'm sure Clojure is great. For the other 99% of us who use VS Code or IntelliJ or something else entirely, it really isn't. Though IntelliJ + Cursive I'd say is probably the best, it still pales in comparison to say Rust or TypeScript support in editors.
- robertfw 4y ago
  I've found Calva for VS Code to be excellent, what do you think is missing there?
  - fiddlerwoaroof 4y ago
    I tried Calva a lot and suggested it to my coworkers a while back (2017ish) and it was nothing but trouble. Cursive seemed to work pretty well, though.
    - lilactown 4y ago
      AFAICT Calva has come a very long way in 5 years
  - askonomm 4y ago
    No parinfer support.
- phforms 4y ago
  Have you tried Calva for VS Code? Although I don’t use it myself (I use vim-iced with Neovim, which I like very much), I have heard lots of good things about it and it seems very easy to set up and use.
- jimbokun 4y ago
  “The tools for Lisp aren’t very good because I don’t use those tools.”
  - askonomm 4y ago
    Are you suggesting that one has to forgo their favourite code editors, and learn what is arguably the most complex editor, in order to use Clojure? That's the kind of attitude that makes all beginners run away.
    - fiddlerwoaroof 4y ago
      A beginner can use anything but if you’re using Clojure professionally, you should aspire to using the good tools. Also, emacs isn’t really more complex to use than IntelliJ or Eclipse
  - Qem 4y ago
    You must agree that if the first step in learning a language is "Learn Emacs first", a lot of potential learners are shooed away before they even start. The language has high ceiling, but high floor as well.

askonomm 4y ago

Yeah, for Emacs users I'm sure Clojure is great. For the other 99% of us who use VS Code or IntelliJ or something else entirely, it really isn't. Though IntelliJ + Cursive I'd say is probably the best, it still pales in comparison to say Rust or TypeScript support in editors.

robertfw 4y ago
I've found Calva for VS Code to be excellent, what do you think is missing there?
- fiddlerwoaroof 4y ago
  I tried Calva a lot and suggested it to my coworkers a while back (2017ish) and it was nothing but trouble. Cursive seemed to work pretty well, though.
  - lilactown 4y ago
    AFAICT Calva has come a very long way in 5 years
- askonomm 4y ago
  No parinfer support.
phforms 4y ago
Have you tried Calva for VS Code? Although I don’t use it myself (I use vim-iced with Neovim, which I like very much), I have heard lots of good things about it and it seems very easy to set up and use.
jimbokun 4y ago
“The tools for Lisp aren’t very good because I don’t use those tools.”
- askonomm 4y ago
  Are you suggesting that one has to forgo their favourite code editors, and learn what is arguably the most complex editor, in order to use Clojure? That's the kind of attitude that makes all beginners run away.
  - fiddlerwoaroof 4y ago
    A beginner can use anything but if you’re using Clojure professionally, you should aspire to using the good tools. Also, emacs isn’t really more complex to use than IntelliJ or Eclipse
- Qem 4y ago
  You must agree that if the first step in learning a language is "Learn Emacs first", a lot of potential learners are shooed away before they even start. The language has high ceiling, but high floor as well.