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Hardly revolutionary, its still a fragile derailleur hanging off the frame exposed to the elements. I'm amazed with hub gears and when Honda simply put the der

Hardly revolutionary, its still a fragile derailleur hanging off the frame exposed to the elements. I'm amazed with hub gears and when Honda simply put the derailleur and freehub in the frame with their old downhill bike, that this is still the best solution on the mass market.

mjhay 4y ago
Yeah, I wish they sold derailleur hangers in six-packs. I've always wanted a Rohloff for commuting, but they aren't cheap.
- FpUser 4y ago
  What is cheap, definitely enough for commuting (well except dirty dozen type one) and rides amazingly well are 3 speed Sturmey Archer hubs.
  - timonoko 4y ago
    Problem on 3-speeds is that they are always installed wrong. Number 2 gear is direct connection and lossless and it should be the one you use most. I had to go extreme measures to find 1:3 sprocket set for my 20' folding bike. Originally I was constantly switching between 1 and 2 and never using number 3.
    - analog31 4y ago
      That situation is actually pretty common. The problem is that the gear spacing is quite wide, so there's rarely a use for more than 2 of those gears in a lot of regions. Also, 3-speed bikes in the US were sold with no gearing options. Schwinn geared them too high in my opinion. In England, the bike dealers were instructed to work with the customer to choose a cog that was appropriate for each rider's terrain and physique. I've geared mine based on the realization that my top speed is likely to be limited by wind resistance and my own physique, and I don't need gears that are faster than I can ride.
    - silon42 4y ago
      Yeah, I was looking at the cassete-combo version of the Sturmey Archer 3-speed, but I believe it would be obviously better if the top gear was direct connection (100/70/50% ratios, not 133/100/75%).
      - gomox 4y ago
        You can offset for that with a smaller chainring and you gain some ground clearance. Win win!
- cuu508 4y ago
  In six-packs, because you break them often? How does that typically happen?
  - mjhay 4y ago
    They are kind of a sacrificial part in crashes. They can also get bent going in/out of bike racks. Crashes are a lot more common racing FWIW.
323 4y ago
> amazed with hub gears I've never seen hub gears on light or even medium weight hybrid/city ALU bikes. Which suggests there is a problem with hub gears. Maybe they are heavier, or more expensive, or harder to maintain, but they are not popular.
- bloat 4y ago
  They need very little maintenance. But they are very expensive. e.g. https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/rohloff/ https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/rohloff/
  - 323 4y ago
    But you still don't see them on very pricey bikes ($15k+). So they are very expensive, without being premium, which is a weird place to be.
    - bloat 4y ago
      I've mostly heard of them being used for people doing giant international tours where they want something that just will not break. Seems like a very niche market though!
    - wl 4y ago
      The $15k+ bikes are race bikes, which are probably never going to have internally geared hubs because they're too heavy and add too much drivetrain loss. Rohloff hubs are fairly common on high end ($5k+) bikepacking and touring bikes.
    - hannasanarion 4y ago
      Bikes in the $15k plus range are probably targeted at professional sport cyclists, who need to adhere to UCI equipment regulations, which include the requirement for a chain-derailleur drive. If you want to know what's premium for everyday utility cycling, look at the ebike space, where people are shelling out thousands for bicycles just to use them a vehicles. Hub gears are not dominant, but are very well represented on price points over $2k.
Overtonwindow 4y ago
Some of this might be intended for the pros, and with time modified to be more robust for the retail consumer market.
- johnwalkr 4y ago
  Mountain biking is interesting in that the consumer usually gets to buy exactly what the pros are using.
  - Overtonwindow 4y ago
    Same with road biking. If you are willing to pay for it, you can get the exact same set up as any of the pros, of course, with the exception that some of it might be prototype and exclusive.
mcntsh 4y ago
I personally can't get over how you have to stop pedaling to shift using internal gear systems. People told me you "get used to it," which is true, but the awkwardness never goes away.
m463 4y ago
The nuvinci hub is really interesting. I suspect it is not as efficient as a derailler at transferring power, but it is more efficient at getting power out of your body at the cadence you want. Some bikes pair it with a non-metal chain and it is very quiet.
- wl 4y ago
  Compared to a 7 speed, yeah, a CVT is better for getting your cadence where you want it. 11 and 12 speeds? I've rarely felt like I've wanted intermediate gears with an 11-34T cassette.
- johnwalkr 4y ago
  I bought one and ended up not even making a wheel from it. It was brutally heavy and just playing around with it I could see it would be power-robbing. On that bike I stuck with my shimano 7 speed internal gear hub. For high-end mountain bikes, makers are actually experimenting with removing gears from internal gear hubs[1] because for less mass, they want to keep the full range of gears but use less in the middle. [1] They are not very common but there are some high end downhill bikes that use an internal gear hub, located near the bottom bracket. They are simply too heavy and expensive to appear on other types of bikes.
  - Xylakant 4y ago
    I had an electric cargo bike with a nuvinci, since it was the only option with a belt drive. It works for that application, shifting under load is a nice thing when going up the hill with a heavy bike. But the downsides are pretty big. It’s lossy, so riding the bike without assist was tedious. The gear range is tidy, so I was always missing some on the upper end. I picked a different combination for the next bike.
johnwalkr 4y ago
When you simply, it's kind of true, but the space to do this is really limited and there's no good solution seen yet to keep a wide range of gears in that system.

mjhay 4y ago

Yeah, I wish they sold derailleur hangers in six-packs. I've always wanted a Rohloff for commuting, but they aren't cheap.

FpUser 4y ago
What is cheap, definitely enough for commuting (well except dirty dozen type one) and rides amazingly well are 3 speed Sturmey Archer hubs.
- timonoko 4y ago
  Problem on 3-speeds is that they are always installed wrong. Number 2 gear is direct connection and lossless and it should be the one you use most. I had to go extreme measures to find 1:3 sprocket set for my 20' folding bike. Originally I was constantly switching between 1 and 2 and never using number 3.
  - analog31 4y ago
    That situation is actually pretty common. The problem is that the gear spacing is quite wide, so there's rarely a use for more than 2 of those gears in a lot of regions. Also, 3-speed bikes in the US were sold with no gearing options. Schwinn geared them too high in my opinion. In England, the bike dealers were instructed to work with the customer to choose a cog that was appropriate for each rider's terrain and physique. I've geared mine based on the realization that my top speed is likely to be limited by wind resistance and my own physique, and I don't need gears that are faster than I can ride.
  - silon42 4y ago
    Yeah, I was looking at the cassete-combo version of the Sturmey Archer 3-speed, but I believe it would be obviously better if the top gear was direct connection (100/70/50% ratios, not 133/100/75%).
    - gomox 4y ago
      You can offset for that with a smaller chainring and you gain some ground clearance. Win win!
cuu508 4y ago
In six-packs, because you break them often? How does that typically happen?
- mjhay 4y ago
  They are kind of a sacrificial part in crashes. They can also get bent going in/out of bike racks. Crashes are a lot more common racing FWIW.

323 4y ago

> amazed with hub gears I've never seen hub gears on light or even medium weight hybrid/city ALU bikes. Which suggests there is a problem with hub gears. Maybe they are heavier, or more expensive, or harder to maintain, but they are not popular.

bloat 4y ago
They need very little maintenance. But they are very expensive. e.g. https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/rohloff/ https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/rohloff/
- 323 4y ago
  But you still don't see them on very pricey bikes ($15k+). So they are very expensive, without being premium, which is a weird place to be.
  - bloat 4y ago
    I've mostly heard of them being used for people doing giant international tours where they want something that just will not break. Seems like a very niche market though!
  - wl 4y ago
    The $15k+ bikes are race bikes, which are probably never going to have internally geared hubs because they're too heavy and add too much drivetrain loss. Rohloff hubs are fairly common on high end ($5k+) bikepacking and touring bikes.
  - hannasanarion 4y ago
    Bikes in the $15k plus range are probably targeted at professional sport cyclists, who need to adhere to UCI equipment regulations, which include the requirement for a chain-derailleur drive. If you want to know what's premium for everyday utility cycling, look at the ebike space, where people are shelling out thousands for bicycles just to use them a vehicles. Hub gears are not dominant, but are very well represented on price points over $2k.

Overtonwindow 4y ago

Some of this might be intended for the pros, and with time modified to be more robust for the retail consumer market.

johnwalkr 4y ago
Mountain biking is interesting in that the consumer usually gets to buy exactly what the pros are using.
- Overtonwindow 4y ago
  Same with road biking. If you are willing to pay for it, you can get the exact same set up as any of the pros, of course, with the exception that some of it might be prototype and exclusive.

mcntsh 4y ago

I personally can't get over how you have to stop pedaling to shift using internal gear systems. People told me you "get used to it," which is true, but the awkwardness never goes away.

m463 4y ago

The nuvinci hub is really interesting. I suspect it is not as efficient as a derailler at transferring power, but it is more efficient at getting power out of your body at the cadence you want. Some bikes pair it with a non-metal chain and it is very quiet.

wl 4y ago
Compared to a 7 speed, yeah, a CVT is better for getting your cadence where you want it. 11 and 12 speeds? I've rarely felt like I've wanted intermediate gears with an 11-34T cassette.
johnwalkr 4y ago
I bought one and ended up not even making a wheel from it. It was brutally heavy and just playing around with it I could see it would be power-robbing. On that bike I stuck with my shimano 7 speed internal gear hub. For high-end mountain bikes, makers are actually experimenting with removing gears from internal gear hubs[1] because for less mass, they want to keep the full range of gears but use less in the middle. [1] They are not very common but there are some high end downhill bikes that use an internal gear hub, located near the bottom bracket. They are simply too heavy and expensive to appear on other types of bikes.
- Xylakant 4y ago
  I had an electric cargo bike with a nuvinci, since it was the only option with a belt drive. It works for that application, shifting under load is a nice thing when going up the hill with a heavy bike. But the downsides are pretty big. It’s lossy, so riding the bike without assist was tedious. The gear range is tidy, so I was always missing some on the upper end. I picked a different combination for the next bike.

johnwalkr 4y ago

When you simply, it's kind of true, but the space to do this is really limited and there's no good solution seen yet to keep a wide range of gears in that system.