6 ms·

The only problem I have with this article is this line: "since when does that suddenly mean that you can decide that you are no longer going to pay for product

by Apreche 15y ago

The only problem I have with this article is this line: "since when does that suddenly mean that you can decide that you are no longer going to pay for products that both legally and morally you are obliged to pay for, yet still use them?" Legally obliged to pay for? Yes. Morally? No. I have no moral problem with piracy. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Those are the foundations of my morality. I would love it if people pirated things I made. That's my morality.

Jem 15y ago
> "Morally? No. I have no moral problem with piracy. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Those are the foundations of my morality. I would love it if people pirated things I made. That's my morality." I assume, therefore, that you invite those with an interest in sadomasochism to inflict pain on you? (No, I don't think sadomasochism and piracy are alike, but the idea of making and breaking laws based on what one person is happy to have done to them is IMO ridiculous.)
pbhjpbhj 15y ago
So, your boss will be happy he doesn't have to pay you. The question is how're you going to afford to live and how long will you work for someone who doesn't pay you anything? Don't get me wrong I'm for communism and intentional communities; but are you really advocating that?
- krig 15y ago
  Your argument makes no sense. If my boss doesn't pay me, I'm not working for him. Thus, he is no longer my boss. How is that relevant to the morality issue of piracy? Do you mean in the sense that if I pirate something, the creator of that something doesn't get paid and thus doesn't create the thing that I pirated? But that argument is backwards. If you mean that no more things will be produced in a world with piracy, that's demonstrably false. We've had rampant piracy since the first printing press, the world we live in now is not free from piracy, yet there's more creative work created every year.
  - lachyg 15y ago
    I think you summed it up perfectly. If your boss is no longer paying you, he has no right to your time. Just like with the pirated content, if you don't pay for it, you have no right to it.
    - nextparadigms 15y ago
      I think the piracy "analogies" are getting out of control here.
    - Jugglernaut 15y ago
      What you and most others miss is that people don't really care about the right of things when they pirate. It's a non-issue.
      - hnal943 15y ago
        Pirating is immoral regardless of the pirate's opinion on the matter.
        v0cab 15y ago
        Merriam-Webster: "Definition of IMMORAL : not moral; broadly : conflicting with generally or traditionally held moral principles" Based on this, whether piracy is moral or not depends on people's opinions. I would argue that society does not consider copyright infringement to be especially immoral. Sing 'Happy Birthday' in public without paying the guy who bought the company holding the copyright to it. Is your audience disgusted by this immoral act? Now the owner of the company holding the copyright sues you for your unauthorized use of 'his' song. Would more people think that you acted immorally, or that the copyright holder is acting immorally?
    - v0cab 15y ago
      But with the pirated content, the pirate never entered into an agreement to pay for the content. Also, the creator of the pirated product has only lost a potential sale (one that I would argue that they don't have a right to anyway), whereas the unpaid worker has experienced a 'theft' of their time and work.
DirtyCalvinist 15y ago
I think your logic is a bit facile. If you want people to take your creations, that is not piracy, more or less by definition.
epo 15y ago
You have no idea what you are talking about, I'm guessing this is because you have never created anything worthwhile on which your livelihood depended. I'm sure you'd be quick to whine if your employer (assuming you are old enough to work) could decide whether or not you should be paid for your work after you had done it. I hope you congratulate the next person to steal from you with a cheery "well done, that's my morality too".
- Alexx 15y ago
  This misses the fundamental difference between someone choosing to distribute their work for free, and working under false promise of financial reward. Ignoring the condescending tone of this comment, there are many 'creators' in the world who have no desire to personally profit from their work. That is not the issue being raised.
- krig 15y ago
  You have no idea what you are talking about, I'm guessing this is because you are too old to have grown up with tape trading, VHS copies of films and pirate cable. I have a contract with my employer, he is bound by that agreement to pay me. If he decides he doesn't want to, I stop working for him. If I write a book, no one is under contract to purchase and read it. I'd be happy if someone did, but I'd be foolish to assume that would happen when I started writing it. I have created worthwhile things on which my livelihood depended, and those things have been cheerfully and rampantly pirated (piracy rates of video games estimated at +90%). And the company I worked for made great profits and paid me a nice bonus. Would it have made as much of a profit if those 90%+ of people who played the game, liked it, talked about it, reviewed it without paying for it, had never played it at all? I don't know. Would it have made more profit? I can't say. I doubt you can either.
  - bluebridge 15y ago
    As an employee, you have no basis for understanding the perceived loss that piracy incurs- you are paid 100% what you agreed upon for your creative efforts. Someone else is taking the risk and losing the profit. If you went to get your paycheck and found out that it was 40% lower than what you thought, you might feel some of that self-righteous anger that businesses are espousing. More realistically the worst you will feel is a denied promotion, or lost a job because your company can't realize it's investment in you. Unless you are directly culpable for the creation and distribution of a product and lose money on it because people won't honor your effort, you don't have a basis for passing judgment based on your personal experience (in other words, you're no expert :) ).
rmc 15y ago
Legally obliged to pay for? Yes. A technicality, but if you commit copyright infringement you are not legally obliged to pay for it, you either have commited a crime or you are liable to be sued. You can't just download and then owe the person money. This isn't like when you go into a hair dresser, sit down, get your hair cut and now legally have to pay them.
danking00 15y ago
Are you morally obligated to not violate someone else's wishes in the general case?
- icebraining 15y ago
  If he is, I hope he doesn't go to /b/.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
Czarnian 15y ago
Do me a favor, wouldja? Please cast this particular tenet of your moral code into the form of the golden rule. Exactly what are you doing to others that you would have them do unto you?

by Apreche 15y ago

Jem 15y ago

> "Morally? No. I have no moral problem with piracy. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Those are the foundations of my morality. I would love it if people pirated things I made. That's my morality." I assume, therefore, that you invite those with an interest in sadomasochism to inflict pain on you? (No, I don't think sadomasochism and piracy are alike, but the idea of making and breaking laws based on what one person is happy to have done to them is IMO ridiculous.)

pbhjpbhj 15y ago

So, your boss will be happy he doesn't have to pay you. The question is how're you going to afford to live and how long will you work for someone who doesn't pay you anything? Don't get me wrong I'm for communism and intentional communities; but are you really advocating that?

krig 15y ago
Your argument makes no sense. If my boss doesn't pay me, I'm not working for him. Thus, he is no longer my boss. How is that relevant to the morality issue of piracy? Do you mean in the sense that if I pirate something, the creator of that something doesn't get paid and thus doesn't create the thing that I pirated? But that argument is backwards. If you mean that no more things will be produced in a world with piracy, that's demonstrably false. We've had rampant piracy since the first printing press, the world we live in now is not free from piracy, yet there's more creative work created every year.
- lachyg 15y ago
  I think you summed it up perfectly. If your boss is no longer paying you, he has no right to your time. Just like with the pirated content, if you don't pay for it, you have no right to it.
  - nextparadigms 15y ago
    I think the piracy "analogies" are getting out of control here.
  - Jugglernaut 15y ago
    What you and most others miss is that people don't really care about the right of things when they pirate. It's a non-issue.
    - hnal943 15y ago
      Pirating is immoral regardless of the pirate's opinion on the matter.
      - v0cab 15y ago
        Merriam-Webster: "Definition of IMMORAL : not moral; broadly : conflicting with generally or traditionally held moral principles" Based on this, whether piracy is moral or not depends on people's opinions. I would argue that society does not consider copyright infringement to be especially immoral. Sing 'Happy Birthday' in public without paying the guy who bought the company holding the copyright to it. Is your audience disgusted by this immoral act? Now the owner of the company holding the copyright sues you for your unauthorized use of 'his' song. Would more people think that you acted immorally, or that the copyright holder is acting immorally?
  - v0cab 15y ago
    But with the pirated content, the pirate never entered into an agreement to pay for the content. Also, the creator of the pirated product has only lost a potential sale (one that I would argue that they don't have a right to anyway), whereas the unpaid worker has experienced a 'theft' of their time and work.

DirtyCalvinist 15y ago

I think your logic is a bit facile. If you want people to take your creations, that is not piracy, more or less by definition.

epo 15y ago

You have no idea what you are talking about, I'm guessing this is because you have never created anything worthwhile on which your livelihood depended. I'm sure you'd be quick to whine if your employer (assuming you are old enough to work) could decide whether or not you should be paid for your work after you had done it. I hope you congratulate the next person to steal from you with a cheery "well done, that's my morality too".

Alexx 15y ago
This misses the fundamental difference between someone choosing to distribute their work for free, and working under false promise of financial reward. Ignoring the condescending tone of this comment, there are many 'creators' in the world who have no desire to personally profit from their work. That is not the issue being raised.
krig 15y ago
You have no idea what you are talking about, I'm guessing this is because you are too old to have grown up with tape trading, VHS copies of films and pirate cable. I have a contract with my employer, he is bound by that agreement to pay me. If he decides he doesn't want to, I stop working for him. If I write a book, no one is under contract to purchase and read it. I'd be happy if someone did, but I'd be foolish to assume that would happen when I started writing it. I have created worthwhile things on which my livelihood depended, and those things have been cheerfully and rampantly pirated (piracy rates of video games estimated at +90%). And the company I worked for made great profits and paid me a nice bonus. Would it have made as much of a profit if those 90%+ of people who played the game, liked it, talked about it, reviewed it without paying for it, had never played it at all? I don't know. Would it have made more profit? I can't say. I doubt you can either.
- bluebridge 15y ago
  As an employee, you have no basis for understanding the perceived loss that piracy incurs- you are paid 100% what you agreed upon for your creative efforts. Someone else is taking the risk and losing the profit. If you went to get your paycheck and found out that it was 40% lower than what you thought, you might feel some of that self-righteous anger that businesses are espousing. More realistically the worst you will feel is a denied promotion, or lost a job because your company can't realize it's investment in you. Unless you are directly culpable for the creation and distribution of a product and lose money on it because people won't honor your effort, you don't have a basis for passing judgment based on your personal experience (in other words, you're no expert :) ).

rmc 15y ago

Legally obliged to pay for? Yes. A technicality, but if you commit copyright infringement you are not legally obliged to pay for it, you either have commited a crime or you are liable to be sued. You can't just download and then owe the person money. This isn't like when you go into a hair dresser, sit down, get your hair cut and now legally have to pay them.

danking00 15y ago

Are you morally obligated to not violate someone else's wishes in the general case?

icebraining 15y ago
If he is, I hope he doesn't go to /b/.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

Czarnian 15y ago

Do me a favor, wouldja? Please cast this particular tenet of your moral code into the form of the golden rule. Exactly what are you doing to others that you would have them do unto you?