5 ms·

Bike sharing services are great in those situations. You don't even need to carry your bike in the train. There is also public transit like trams and buses.

runako 4y ago
Gentle reminder that a significant portion of society is not able to carry out trips on bikes due to infirmity, disability, or needing to convey someone who cannot bike (e.g. small children).
- nostromo123 4y ago
  I agree, but in a short time someone will reply here to tell you how they brought their kids to kindergarten in subzero temperatures with a bike, or how they bike half an hour in rain to buy groceries... For my family it's not even about the physical aspect, but about time. I don't want to waste my free time going to and from places in 2x/3x the time it takes by car.
  - runako 4y ago
    > in a short time someone will reply here to tell you how they brought their kids to kindergarten in subzero temperatures with a bike, or how they bike half an hour in rain to buy groceries... Fully expecting that comment, and I look forward to that person describing how they take an elderly parent to the doctor on a bike…
    - mantas 4y ago
      CARGO BIKE /s
      - Xylakant 4y ago
        You’re being sarcastic, but I’ve been there and done that. For $reasons. Under other circumstances, the answer would be “take a cab.”
        mantas 4y ago
        „Take a cab“ is always an option. But at some point, if using it frequently enough, it becomes cheaper and more convenient to just own the damn thing.
        Xylakant 4y ago
        If you take into account the current costs for cars, you can do a lot of kilometer per cab every month. I‘ve done the math for me - I could take the cab around 20-30 times a month for an average distance, for the costs associated with a VW Golf size car. There are also options that cover the middle ground: Mixed mode (cab, train, cab) or car sharing. Certainly not available for all of us, but just as certainly available to many of us. The primary issue is that the math only works out if you don’t buy/own a car, otherwise you‘ll have the majority of the costs of car ownership anyways. On a pure mile by mile replacement, the math doesn‘t work out.
        mantas 4y ago
        If you MUST lease a brand new car and replace it every few years - probably. But driving a slightly older car is perfectly fine. There're a lot of other variables. Family/life situation, hobbies, health situation, visual (fuck video ads on public transit) and audio noise tolerance...
        Xylakant 4y ago
        People upthread ran the numbers and arrived at 600 USD/month for a used car. Seems high to me, but I don't know how the math works out in the US. For Germany, this is a pretty good modeling of the costs https://financer.com/de/blog/was-kostet-ein-auto-im-monat/ https://financer.com/de/blog/was-kostet-ein-auto-im-monat/ and it still arrives at 240 EUR/month for a used car. That's maybe not 20 cab rides, but still a significant number. Obviously, the math I did for me works out for me. It likely will look different for you. However, I never pretended that the math works out for everyone - it doesn't. But it would work out for a lot of people if they were honest.
    - lnsru 4y ago
      That’s perfect case for a taxi. However I love cars and just playing devil’s advocate here.
      - bluGill 4y ago
        The cost of a taxi ride is not affordable if you need to make that type of trip often. Paying $40 for a ride once or twice a year is okay, but if you need to make a weekly trip to the doctor, plus get groceries and go to church on Sunday - a brand new car is now cheaper (a brand new car is very expensive, most people drive older used cars that are a lot cheaper)
    - rexpress 4y ago
      The 'elderly parent to the doctor' case is still an argument for bike infrastructure. The more people choose to travel by bike instead of by car, the more space is available on the roads for those that need motor vehicles.
    - Steltek 4y ago
      Don't be silly. The elderly parent with bad reflexes and even worse eyesight will drive themselves to the doctor in their equally decrepit car. That's what really happens when you reinforce the belief that cars are a necessity because bikes are some extreme hardship.
      - UncleEntity 4y ago
        You’re joking but I once took an elderly man from the front entrance of his building to the parking lot in my cab because he couldn’t walk that far with his walker (which wasn’t all that far from the back door) and had to help him get behind the wheel to drive off. Needless to say I waited a bit for him to clear the neighborhood before driving off.
        Steltek 4y ago
        Oh I'm very much NOT joking! I was stopped at a red light on my bike when I was rear ended by an 83yo. He couldn't judge how far his car was from my bike. He was super angry that I insisted he had to stick around to exchange information because he was going to be late for a doctor's appointment in Brookline. Thankfully it was low speed (he was stopping, he just didn't know where to stop) so all he did was knock me forwards.
        UncleEntity 4y ago
        83 must be the magic year… Had one back into me at a traffic light, with me honking, and then put it into drive and take off when the light changed. Had to have the cops drag him out of a medical building to get a report and his story went from “no accident” (at the scene) to me rear ending him (on the witness stand contesting his ticket), luckily I was hauling around a passenger who confirmed my side of the story. Still don’t have a clue why he thought it was a good idea to put it into reverse and barely creep backward at a red light with cars all around him.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- ryukafalz 4y ago
  A significant portion of society is also not able to drive for similar reasons, but they mostly go ignored in our car-centric society. Nobody's saying that we should completely eliminate the ability to drive, certainly some people will need to, but we need to also provide viable options for those who can't. Additionally, bike infrastructure works great for mobility scooters too: https://youtu.be/xSGx3HSjKDo https://youtu.be/xSGx3HSjKDo
  - mcv 4y ago
    This exactly. Different people have different needs and abilities, and we all get better options if more options become available. This is why investing in more bike infrastructure is ultimately good for everybody, even for the people who absolutely need a car; more people in public transit or on bikes means less cars on the load, less stress on infrastructure, less traffic jams, etc.
- robin_reala 4y ago
  If you need to convey kids then you buy a bike that conveys kids easily. Copenhagen is full of these sort of box bikes[1] (well, trikes I guess) that at their larger side will happily fit three to four small children. [1] https://christianiabikesamerica.com/collections/all-models https://christianiabikesamerica.com/collections/all-models
- ianburrell 4y ago
  Taking cars off the roads means more space for the people who do need the roads. Few people are saying get rid of cars entirely, they have important uses. The roads already exist, tearing them out would be stupid. But we shouldn’t design our cities around them and require everyone have one. This has advantages for those who need to drive, reducing traffic.
- bluecalm 4y ago
  Those people can still ride mobility scooters, e-bikes, small electric vehicles (like golf carts) but often can't drive. Car centric world means exclusion for those groups.
pc86 4y ago
I didn't see many bikes in Amsterdam capable of conveying luggage.
- david-gpu 4y ago
  How frequently do people need to carry luggage? The space afforded by a backpack or panniers on a regular bike suffices for most people most of the time. We can all conjure circumstances when it is difficult or inconvenient to use public transit, but deep down we all know most people most of the time are driving their cars alone with minimal cargo and the reason they are driving is because our towns are designed to make it as convenient as possible.
  - bluGill 4y ago
    It is hard to get groceries for a family into panniers. I did it while I was single, but now that there is a family to feed things don't fit. Even if you go shopping daily, a lot of things don't fit at all. I've used my bike trailer for groceries. You have to be careful that you don't buy more than fits, but it works.
- oefnak 4y ago
  There's plenty of 'bakfietsen' in Amsterdam.
- mcv 4y ago
  People carry entire families on their bikes in Amsterdam. There's been a massive boom in cargo bikes of every sort. But even regular bikes often have a small crate.

runako 4y ago

Gentle reminder that a significant portion of society is not able to carry out trips on bikes due to infirmity, disability, or needing to convey someone who cannot bike (e.g. small children).

nostromo123 4y ago
I agree, but in a short time someone will reply here to tell you how they brought their kids to kindergarten in subzero temperatures with a bike, or how they bike half an hour in rain to buy groceries... For my family it's not even about the physical aspect, but about time. I don't want to waste my free time going to and from places in 2x/3x the time it takes by car.
- runako 4y ago
  > in a short time someone will reply here to tell you how they brought their kids to kindergarten in subzero temperatures with a bike, or how they bike half an hour in rain to buy groceries... Fully expecting that comment, and I look forward to that person describing how they take an elderly parent to the doctor on a bike…
  - mantas 4y ago
    CARGO BIKE /s
    - Xylakant 4y ago
      You’re being sarcastic, but I’ve been there and done that. For $reasons. Under other circumstances, the answer would be “take a cab.”
      - mantas 4y ago
        „Take a cab“ is always an option. But at some point, if using it frequently enough, it becomes cheaper and more convenient to just own the damn thing.
        Xylakant 4y ago
        If you take into account the current costs for cars, you can do a lot of kilometer per cab every month. I‘ve done the math for me - I could take the cab around 20-30 times a month for an average distance, for the costs associated with a VW Golf size car. There are also options that cover the middle ground: Mixed mode (cab, train, cab) or car sharing. Certainly not available for all of us, but just as certainly available to many of us. The primary issue is that the math only works out if you don’t buy/own a car, otherwise you‘ll have the majority of the costs of car ownership anyways. On a pure mile by mile replacement, the math doesn‘t work out.
        mantas 4y ago
        If you MUST lease a brand new car and replace it every few years - probably. But driving a slightly older car is perfectly fine. There're a lot of other variables. Family/life situation, hobbies, health situation, visual (fuck video ads on public transit) and audio noise tolerance...
        Xylakant 4y ago
        People upthread ran the numbers and arrived at 600 USD/month for a used car. Seems high to me, but I don't know how the math works out in the US. For Germany, this is a pretty good modeling of the costs https://financer.com/de/blog/was-kostet-ein-auto-im-monat/ https://financer.com/de/blog/was-kostet-ein-auto-im-monat/ and it still arrives at 240 EUR/month for a used car. That's maybe not 20 cab rides, but still a significant number. Obviously, the math I did for me works out for me. It likely will look different for you. However, I never pretended that the math works out for everyone - it doesn't. But it would work out for a lot of people if they were honest.
  - lnsru 4y ago
    That’s perfect case for a taxi. However I love cars and just playing devil’s advocate here.
    - bluGill 4y ago
      The cost of a taxi ride is not affordable if you need to make that type of trip often. Paying $40 for a ride once or twice a year is okay, but if you need to make a weekly trip to the doctor, plus get groceries and go to church on Sunday - a brand new car is now cheaper (a brand new car is very expensive, most people drive older used cars that are a lot cheaper)
  - rexpress 4y ago
    The 'elderly parent to the doctor' case is still an argument for bike infrastructure. The more people choose to travel by bike instead of by car, the more space is available on the roads for those that need motor vehicles.
  - Steltek 4y ago
    Don't be silly. The elderly parent with bad reflexes and even worse eyesight will drive themselves to the doctor in their equally decrepit car. That's what really happens when you reinforce the belief that cars are a necessity because bikes are some extreme hardship.
    - UncleEntity 4y ago
      You’re joking but I once took an elderly man from the front entrance of his building to the parking lot in my cab because he couldn’t walk that far with his walker (which wasn’t all that far from the back door) and had to help him get behind the wheel to drive off. Needless to say I waited a bit for him to clear the neighborhood before driving off.
      - Steltek 4y ago
        Oh I'm very much NOT joking! I was stopped at a red light on my bike when I was rear ended by an 83yo. He couldn't judge how far his car was from my bike. He was super angry that I insisted he had to stick around to exchange information because he was going to be late for a doctor's appointment in Brookline. Thankfully it was low speed (he was stopping, he just didn't know where to stop) so all he did was knock me forwards.
        UncleEntity 4y ago
        83 must be the magic year… Had one back into me at a traffic light, with me honking, and then put it into drive and take off when the light changed. Had to have the cops drag him out of a medical building to get a report and his story went from “no accident” (at the scene) to me rear ending him (on the witness stand contesting his ticket), luckily I was hauling around a passenger who confirmed my side of the story. Still don’t have a clue why he thought it was a good idea to put it into reverse and barely creep backward at a red light with cars all around him.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
ryukafalz 4y ago
A significant portion of society is also not able to drive for similar reasons, but they mostly go ignored in our car-centric society. Nobody's saying that we should completely eliminate the ability to drive, certainly some people will need to, but we need to also provide viable options for those who can't. Additionally, bike infrastructure works great for mobility scooters too: https://youtu.be/xSGx3HSjKDo https://youtu.be/xSGx3HSjKDo
- mcv 4y ago
  This exactly. Different people have different needs and abilities, and we all get better options if more options become available. This is why investing in more bike infrastructure is ultimately good for everybody, even for the people who absolutely need a car; more people in public transit or on bikes means less cars on the load, less stress on infrastructure, less traffic jams, etc.
robin_reala 4y ago
If you need to convey kids then you buy a bike that conveys kids easily. Copenhagen is full of these sort of box bikes[1] (well, trikes I guess) that at their larger side will happily fit three to four small children. [1] https://christianiabikesamerica.com/collections/all-models https://christianiabikesamerica.com/collections/all-models
ianburrell 4y ago
Taking cars off the roads means more space for the people who do need the roads. Few people are saying get rid of cars entirely, they have important uses. The roads already exist, tearing them out would be stupid. But we shouldn’t design our cities around them and require everyone have one. This has advantages for those who need to drive, reducing traffic.
bluecalm 4y ago
Those people can still ride mobility scooters, e-bikes, small electric vehicles (like golf carts) but often can't drive. Car centric world means exclusion for those groups.

pc86 4y ago

I didn't see many bikes in Amsterdam capable of conveying luggage.

david-gpu 4y ago
How frequently do people need to carry luggage? The space afforded by a backpack or panniers on a regular bike suffices for most people most of the time. We can all conjure circumstances when it is difficult or inconvenient to use public transit, but deep down we all know most people most of the time are driving their cars alone with minimal cargo and the reason they are driving is because our towns are designed to make it as convenient as possible.
- bluGill 4y ago
  It is hard to get groceries for a family into panniers. I did it while I was single, but now that there is a family to feed things don't fit. Even if you go shopping daily, a lot of things don't fit at all. I've used my bike trailer for groceries. You have to be careful that you don't buy more than fits, but it works.
oefnak 4y ago
There's plenty of 'bakfietsen' in Amsterdam.
mcv 4y ago
People carry entire families on their bikes in Amsterdam. There's been a massive boom in cargo bikes of every sort. But even regular bikes often have a small crate.