4 ms·

> The airbnb thing is more interesting and nuanced but harder to get a handle on. It might be that airbnb is causing some unhealthy things in the real estate ma

by piva00 4y ago

> The airbnb thing is more interesting and nuanced but harder to get a handle on. It might be that airbnb is causing some unhealthy things in the real estate market. I have friends living in Lisbon and Porto for 10+ years, others that were born and raised there. All of them mention how entire neighbourhoods are slowly being emptied out from locals and getting rented on AirBnB. It's more profitable to rent an apartment short-term for a season than having permanent tenants. There are neighbourhoods hollowed out from people living in them and are just boxes to be rented during peak tourism season and left empty during winter. It's not so nuanced if you see the transformation happening in your city, you notice your friends living further and further away from where they grew up, you walk through the same places and see the language being spoken on the streets is not what you were used to. You check prices for T1 and T2 apartments and they skyrocketed, are very hard to find through real estate services but can be found easily on AirBnB.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
jacquesm 4y ago
The same in Amsterdam. The 55 square meter apartment that I lived in from ages six to ten is now split into two studios rented out on AirBnB in the hipster neighborhood of 'de Pijp' for a large multiple of what it would fetch in rent (which are already way too high). This goes for many of the listings on AirBnB in Amsterdam, four stories worth of not-quite-a-hotel instead of room for four families to live are pretty common. And there always was a housing shortage in Amsterdam, now it is much worse than before.
- WeylandYutani 4y ago
  Yes but the difference is that expats in Amsterdam work for companies based in the Netherlands. They ad to the economy they aren't just here for the weather and cheap housing (nobody comes to the Netherlands for the weather and cheap housing).
  - pchangr 4y ago
    But he’s talking about Abnb
ricardobayes 4y ago
It's crazy that Portugal, a country with almost exactly the same GDP and population as Hungary, Lisbon has average square meter prices reaching 7k EUR/m2. Budapest is barely 2-2.5k EUR/m2. That's just the effect of airbnb.
- FredPret 4y ago
  Where would you rather go as a tourist
  - dorchadas 4y ago
    Why should a tourist get a house? Especially if it takes away from the locals being able to actually live somewhere.
- Eric_WVGG 4y ago
  That’s kind of funny, I just spent a week meeting a Hungarian co-worker who, from the sound of things, refuses to return home until Orbán is out. She claimed that there were state-sponsored billboards that read things like (this is her words) “IMMIGRANTS RAPE WOMEN.” If there’s any truth to that, then I’d say their rental market is pretty well-protected from foreign workers, to say the least…
ajsnigrutin 4y ago
Yep.. happening everywhere. Somehow the regulators (and governments) prefer more money over their own citizens. Banning short term rentals would solve (or atleast reduce) housing problems in many cities, while tourists can still come and stay in hotels.
- kmlx 4y ago
  why not simply build more houses?
  - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
    We are building, but building takes time, and all the houses and apartments are bought by 'investors' that then use them for airbnb... This is even more true in places like portugal (and many others), where realestate prices are so high compared to normal peoples income (due to speculative and airbnb investments), that normal people cannot afford them anymore, and only people with a lot of money or other realestate (for mortgages) can buy them, and the best way to earn back investments is again, airbnb. So, you need to both build new stuff and ban airbnb for any chance that normal people with normal incomes will ever be able to afford to buy anything decent to live in. Also somehow stop buying realestate for investments. Also fix zoning laws in many places. Also...
    - kmlx 4y ago
      > but building takes time this is by choice. > and all the houses and apartments are bought by 'investors' that then use them for airbnb if the demand is there then the only sensible solution is to build a lot more.
      - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
        Building more housing just to satisfy speculative demand never ends well. You get ghost cities/districts and lots of pink elephants; and when the bust comes, its a huge mess to clean up, and a lot of those units will never be used before being torn down.
rtpg 4y ago
this is an issue that I've seen in several beach towns in france as well, and it's not limited to airbnb. You will see real estate places that offer weekly rentals of beachside properties at very high rates. Of course those places are basically unused outside of that. This sort of stuff sets in, and then of course people are shocked that their entire local economy lives or dies off of one season. We should build more housing of course, but limiting the percentage of places that can just be sitting empty most of the years seems super important. At least making it extremely expensive to keep them empty
dorchadas 4y ago
100% true in Ireland. In 2020 the number of long-term lets doubled due to AirBnB people fleeing into long-term when tourism was basically non-existent. Sadly, they've all moved back to AirBnB by now, and Ireland is now facing the worst housing crisis yet.
JeremyNT 4y ago
> I have friends living in Lisbon and Porto for 10+ years, others that were born and raised there. All of them mention how entire neighbourhoods are slowly being emptied out from locals and getting rented on AirBnB. It's more profitable to rent an apartment short-term for a season than having permanent tenants. There are neighbourhoods hollowed out from people living in them and are just boxes to be rented during peak tourism season and left empty during winter. I'm currently living in Nashville, Tennessee, and one can see the same effect here. The town is completely unequipped to handle the level of tourism and unregulated hotels it has. The price of housing has shot up to insane levels (by local pay standards), and neighborhoods are inundated with drunken revelers. I would never wish this fate on a city, but many seem to foster/welcome it with open arms. I know Nashville has, because the tourist money spends. But be careful what you with for, turning a city into a theme park / tourist destination has some horrible effects on the people who actually live there, and it seems like it should not be sustainable.
- dorchadas 4y ago
  Sadly, it looks like it is. For another example in Tennessee, look at Gatlinburg and Pigeon Forge. Even as recently as 50-60 years ago most the locals lived in the areas. Since then, they've been priced out by all the tourists and cabins, etc. And it doesn't really show any signs of slowing down, to my knowledge.

by piva00 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

jacquesm 4y ago

The same in Amsterdam. The 55 square meter apartment that I lived in from ages six to ten is now split into two studios rented out on AirBnB in the hipster neighborhood of 'de Pijp' for a large multiple of what it would fetch in rent (which are already way too high). This goes for many of the listings on AirBnB in Amsterdam, four stories worth of not-quite-a-hotel instead of room for four families to live are pretty common. And there always was a housing shortage in Amsterdam, now it is much worse than before.

WeylandYutani 4y ago
Yes but the difference is that expats in Amsterdam work for companies based in the Netherlands. They ad to the economy they aren't just here for the weather and cheap housing (nobody comes to the Netherlands for the weather and cheap housing).
- pchangr 4y ago
  But he’s talking about Abnb

ricardobayes 4y ago

It's crazy that Portugal, a country with almost exactly the same GDP and population as Hungary, Lisbon has average square meter prices reaching 7k EUR/m2. Budapest is barely 2-2.5k EUR/m2. That's just the effect of airbnb.

FredPret 4y ago
Where would you rather go as a tourist
- dorchadas 4y ago
  Why should a tourist get a house? Especially if it takes away from the locals being able to actually live somewhere.
Eric_WVGG 4y ago
That’s kind of funny, I just spent a week meeting a Hungarian co-worker who, from the sound of things, refuses to return home until Orbán is out. She claimed that there were state-sponsored billboards that read things like (this is her words) “IMMIGRANTS RAPE WOMEN.” If there’s any truth to that, then I’d say their rental market is pretty well-protected from foreign workers, to say the least…

ajsnigrutin 4y ago

Yep.. happening everywhere. Somehow the regulators (and governments) prefer more money over their own citizens. Banning short term rentals would solve (or atleast reduce) housing problems in many cities, while tourists can still come and stay in hotels.

kmlx 4y ago
why not simply build more houses?
- ajsnigrutin 4y ago
  We are building, but building takes time, and all the houses and apartments are bought by 'investors' that then use them for airbnb... This is even more true in places like portugal (and many others), where realestate prices are so high compared to normal peoples income (due to speculative and airbnb investments), that normal people cannot afford them anymore, and only people with a lot of money or other realestate (for mortgages) can buy them, and the best way to earn back investments is again, airbnb. So, you need to both build new stuff and ban airbnb for any chance that normal people with normal incomes will ever be able to afford to buy anything decent to live in. Also somehow stop buying realestate for investments. Also fix zoning laws in many places. Also...
  - kmlx 4y ago
    > but building takes time this is by choice. > and all the houses and apartments are bought by 'investors' that then use them for airbnb if the demand is there then the only sensible solution is to build a lot more.
    - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
      Building more housing just to satisfy speculative demand never ends well. You get ghost cities/districts and lots of pink elephants; and when the bust comes, its a huge mess to clean up, and a lot of those units will never be used before being torn down.

rtpg 4y ago

this is an issue that I've seen in several beach towns in france as well, and it's not limited to airbnb. You will see real estate places that offer weekly rentals of beachside properties at very high rates. Of course those places are basically unused outside of that. This sort of stuff sets in, and then of course people are shocked that their entire local economy lives or dies off of one season. We should build more housing of course, but limiting the percentage of places that can just be sitting empty most of the years seems super important. At least making it extremely expensive to keep them empty

dorchadas 4y ago

100% true in Ireland. In 2020 the number of long-term lets doubled due to AirBnB people fleeing into long-term when tourism was basically non-existent. Sadly, they've all moved back to AirBnB by now, and Ireland is now facing the worst housing crisis yet.

JeremyNT 4y ago

> I have friends living in Lisbon and Porto for 10+ years, others that were born and raised there. All of them mention how entire neighbourhoods are slowly being emptied out from locals and getting rented on AirBnB. It's more profitable to rent an apartment short-term for a season than having permanent tenants. There are neighbourhoods hollowed out from people living in them and are just boxes to be rented during peak tourism season and left empty during winter. I'm currently living in Nashville, Tennessee, and one can see the same effect here. The town is completely unequipped to handle the level of tourism and unregulated hotels it has. The price of housing has shot up to insane levels (by local pay standards), and neighborhoods are inundated with drunken revelers. I would never wish this fate on a city, but many seem to foster/welcome it with open arms. I know Nashville has, because the tourist money spends. But be careful what you with for, turning a city into a theme park / tourist destination has some horrible effects on the people who actually live there, and it seems like it should not be sustainable.

dorchadas 4y ago
Sadly, it looks like it is. For another example in Tennessee, look at Gatlinburg and Pigeon Forge. Even as recently as 50-60 years ago most the locals lived in the areas. Since then, they've been priced out by all the tourists and cabins, etc. And it doesn't really show any signs of slowing down, to my knowledge.