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The golden visa isn't causing the housing shortage because it's a very small program. I couldn't find a primary source but all sources say the same as this one

The golden visa isn't causing the housing shortage because it's a very small program. I couldn't find a primary source but all sources say the same as this one: https://www.imidaily.com/datacenter/portugal-data/ https://www.imidaily.com/datacenter/portugal-data/ The program lets in on the order of a few thousand people per year. Other visa programs there vastly outstrip this is number. The golden visa is just a great marketing term for political ire. It implies wealthy privilege so it's easily targeted. Of course, the reality of things is that Portugal has recently rightly earned a reputation for being a great place to live and people (not many of them super rich) decided to live there. Housing is being built to compensate. The airbnb thing is more interesting and nuanced but harder to get a handle on. It might be that airbnb is causing some unhealthy things in the real estate market.

JetSpiegel 4y ago
Over 10% of houses in Portugal are AirBnB. That's just crazy! In some neighborhoods, it's over 60%. Plus, there's something like 700k empty houses, for some reason on another. There's no lack of houses for everyone, just hoarding and speculation.
- dorchadas 4y ago
  How did you find that stat? I'd love to look it up for Ireland, Dublin and Galway especially.
  - JetSpiegel 4y ago
    The PM gave an interview a few days ago on local TV.
jonathanstrange 4y ago
Yes, it's a small program but it has created some negative side effects - although you could also consider them positive, depending on your viewpoint. I've been living in Lisbon for 14 years as a EU citizen and currently have to renew my permanent residency card. Unfortunately, the authority SEF responsible for that is not reachable. Online processing doesn't work, making an appointment online doesn't work, writing emails returns auto-replies to call them, and I've given up via phone after more than 60 trials. Even when you get a connection, they don't respond. So I've contacted an immigration lawyer, and they several times mentioned "Gold Visas" and later sent me an offer: 500.- EUR for an appointment they would make with SEF. This might sound like nothing to people from elsewhere but these are substantial amounts for someone with a Portuguese salary. However, this would be peanuts for a Gold Visa applicant.
- rwmj 4y ago
  This sounds like regular old corruption, incompetence and/or underfunding.
- kumoflow 4y ago
  Problem is sef has been extinguesh (but not really) a few years ago due to an high profile case with them beating to death a ukranian man. For the ‘left’ in this country it is also considered a racist institution. Problem is, as with all that is done in this country, they announce the end, make no real plans for alternatives, leave the people working there in a limbo, noone gets hired and people leave, but they get more and more work to do with the immigrant influx. The golden visa wasnt already the big deal since it wa slimited, but the digital nomad visa (over two thousand issued in just a few months) and the open door policy of this government (you dont need even a promis eof work anymore to just come to portugal) overwhelmed the services. And then there is the stupid laws that lawyers and other classes working in behalf of clients have priority in these services
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  In UK just filing an application for a normal work visa for a family of 4 costs o £10,000. This is what the government 5akes, no lawyers For each applicant, there is a ~1500 application fee and ~1500 healthcare fee ( NHS, 3 years). Ofcourse you will be paying for NHS twice because you also pay the taxes to fund NHS. Spesifics will differe with individual case, but thats the broad strokes. If you need a lawyer to explain something, they rarely get up for less than £500
  - jonathanstrange 4y ago
    Yes, but we're not talking about a work visa, e.g. my case is about a process that would normally be automatic by the press of a button. They even have a web form, it just doesn't work. As someone else noted, the problem is that this agency has become virtually nonexistent and unreachable due to re-structuring and Covid, yet nevertheless keeps being required by law for essential services. I've been tempted to start a EU solicitation process, but then again, being confrontational with an immigration police who have already unlawfully killed an immigrant in the past does not seem to be a good course of action.
mytailorisrich 4y ago
Portugal is a small country of 10 million with another 450 million people entitled to move there freely without visas...
- logifail 4y ago
  > Portugal is a small country of 10 million with another 450 million people entitled to move there freely without visas For a stay of up to three months[0], yes. Remember that when people talk about freedom of movement within the EU it's actually the free movement of workers[1], meaning beyond three months, you have to meet certain conditions, and will likely need to demonstrate you have income/employment/insurance/social security/pension... [0] https://commission.europa.eu/strategy-and-policy/policies/justice-and-fundamental-rights/eu-citizenship/movement-and-residence_en https://commission.europa.eu/strategy-and-policy/policies/ju... [1] https://www.europarl.europa.eu/factsheets/en/sheet/41/free-movement-of-workers https://www.europarl.europa.eu/factsheets/en/sheet/41/free-m...
  - mytailorisrich 4y ago
    That's academic. Apart from very rare cases where someone has been deemed an "unreasonable burden" (e.g. homeless creating problems) no-one is going to be deported. In fact no-one tracks who's in the country and how long they stay. Certainly, for the purpose of this discussion the point is that anyone who's got EEA or Swiss citizenship can freely move and live in Portugal. So if some people in Portugal think they are being overwhelmed there is actually little they can do.
    - logifail 4y ago
      > That's academic Are you suggesting that EU citizens are allowed to stay for more than 3 months in Portugal without a residency certificate? > In fact no-one tracks who's in the country and how long they stay This is typically completely fine, right up until the moment anyone in authority gets a reason to start asking questions: "When did you arrive in Portugal, mytailorisrich?" "Ah, over three months ago. Can you show me your residency certificate?" <sucks air through teeth> "Can you explain why you didn't get a residency certificate?"
bantunes 4y ago
The golden visa program was put forward as a "job creation" initiative, but results show it generated as little as 280 jobs in a decade https://www.publico.pt/2022/11/07/politica/noticia/decada-vistos-gold-gerou-280-postos-trabalho-2026529 https://www.publico.pt/2022/11/07/politica/noticia/decada-vi... It was mostly used for wealthy foreigners to acquire real estate, hence the ire. As for AirBnb, it has decimated historical neighbourhoods in Lisbon and turned its historical areas into a kind of theme park.
- smcl 4y ago
  AirBnb is similarly catching flak for much of Prague's recent spike in housing costs too, and tbh I don't think it's unjustified.
- itronitron 4y ago
  Which should be bringing money into Lisbon to the net benefit of all people living there. If most of the theme park money isn't staying in Portugal then they should pass some legislation to favor the local economy.
  - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
    it could be doing more damage because high house prices destroy local economy. When willvl the West finally learns the lesson that unaffordable realestate is uneconomic suicide just like unaffordable food would be
    - TheOtherHobbes 4y ago
      They don't just destroy the local economy. They also destroy trust in politics - always fragile at best - and hugely increase the odds of a racist/fascist government. We've already seen this in the UK, where a drum beat of race hate aimed at immigrants and refugees has been used to misdirect the population away from neoliberal austerity and "low tax, small government" (big profit) policies. Which - not coincidentally - include a huge amount of literal rent seeking and property profiteering.
piva00 4y ago
> The airbnb thing is more interesting and nuanced but harder to get a handle on. It might be that airbnb is causing some unhealthy things in the real estate market. I have friends living in Lisbon and Porto for 10+ years, others that were born and raised there. All of them mention how entire neighbourhoods are slowly being emptied out from locals and getting rented on AirBnB. It's more profitable to rent an apartment short-term for a season than having permanent tenants. There are neighbourhoods hollowed out from people living in them and are just boxes to be rented during peak tourism season and left empty during winter. It's not so nuanced if you see the transformation happening in your city, you notice your friends living further and further away from where they grew up, you walk through the same places and see the language being spoken on the streets is not what you were used to. You check prices for T1 and T2 apartments and they skyrocketed, are very hard to find through real estate services but can be found easily on AirBnB.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- jacquesm 4y ago
  The same in Amsterdam. The 55 square meter apartment that I lived in from ages six to ten is now split into two studios rented out on AirBnB in the hipster neighborhood of 'de Pijp' for a large multiple of what it would fetch in rent (which are already way too high). This goes for many of the listings on AirBnB in Amsterdam, four stories worth of not-quite-a-hotel instead of room for four families to live are pretty common. And there always was a housing shortage in Amsterdam, now it is much worse than before.
  - WeylandYutani 4y ago
    Yes but the difference is that expats in Amsterdam work for companies based in the Netherlands. They ad to the economy they aren't just here for the weather and cheap housing (nobody comes to the Netherlands for the weather and cheap housing).
    - pchangr 4y ago

JetSpiegel 4y ago

Over 10% of houses in Portugal are AirBnB. That's just crazy! In some neighborhoods, it's over 60%. Plus, there's something like 700k empty houses, for some reason on another. There's no lack of houses for everyone, just hoarding and speculation.

dorchadas 4y ago
How did you find that stat? I'd love to look it up for Ireland, Dublin and Galway especially.
- JetSpiegel 4y ago
  The PM gave an interview a few days ago on local TV.

jonathanstrange 4y ago

Yes, it's a small program but it has created some negative side effects - although you could also consider them positive, depending on your viewpoint. I've been living in Lisbon for 14 years as a EU citizen and currently have to renew my permanent residency card. Unfortunately, the authority SEF responsible for that is not reachable. Online processing doesn't work, making an appointment online doesn't work, writing emails returns auto-replies to call them, and I've given up via phone after more than 60 trials. Even when you get a connection, they don't respond. So I've contacted an immigration lawyer, and they several times mentioned "Gold Visas" and later sent me an offer: 500.- EUR for an appointment they would make with SEF. This might sound like nothing to people from elsewhere but these are substantial amounts for someone with a Portuguese salary. However, this would be peanuts for a Gold Visa applicant.

rwmj 4y ago
This sounds like regular old corruption, incompetence and/or underfunding.
kumoflow 4y ago
Problem is sef has been extinguesh (but not really) a few years ago due to an high profile case with them beating to death a ukranian man. For the ‘left’ in this country it is also considered a racist institution. Problem is, as with all that is done in this country, they announce the end, make no real plans for alternatives, leave the people working there in a limbo, noone gets hired and people leave, but they get more and more work to do with the immigrant influx. The golden visa wasnt already the big deal since it wa slimited, but the digital nomad visa (over two thousand issued in just a few months) and the open door policy of this government (you dont need even a promis eof work anymore to just come to portugal) overwhelmed the services. And then there is the stupid laws that lawyers and other classes working in behalf of clients have priority in these services
ClumsyPilot 4y ago
In UK just filing an application for a normal work visa for a family of 4 costs o £10,000. This is what the government 5akes, no lawyers For each applicant, there is a ~1500 application fee and ~1500 healthcare fee ( NHS, 3 years). Ofcourse you will be paying for NHS twice because you also pay the taxes to fund NHS. Spesifics will differe with individual case, but thats the broad strokes. If you need a lawyer to explain something, they rarely get up for less than £500
- jonathanstrange 4y ago
  Yes, but we're not talking about a work visa, e.g. my case is about a process that would normally be automatic by the press of a button. They even have a web form, it just doesn't work. As someone else noted, the problem is that this agency has become virtually nonexistent and unreachable due to re-structuring and Covid, yet nevertheless keeps being required by law for essential services. I've been tempted to start a EU solicitation process, but then again, being confrontational with an immigration police who have already unlawfully killed an immigrant in the past does not seem to be a good course of action.

mytailorisrich 4y ago

Portugal is a small country of 10 million with another 450 million people entitled to move there freely without visas...

logifail 4y ago
> Portugal is a small country of 10 million with another 450 million people entitled to move there freely without visas For a stay of up to three months[0], yes. Remember that when people talk about freedom of movement within the EU it's actually the free movement of workers[1], meaning beyond three months, you have to meet certain conditions, and will likely need to demonstrate you have income/employment/insurance/social security/pension... [0] https://commission.europa.eu/strategy-and-policy/policies/justice-and-fundamental-rights/eu-citizenship/movement-and-residence_en https://commission.europa.eu/strategy-and-policy/policies/ju... [1] https://www.europarl.europa.eu/factsheets/en/sheet/41/free-movement-of-workers https://www.europarl.europa.eu/factsheets/en/sheet/41/free-m...
- mytailorisrich 4y ago
  That's academic. Apart from very rare cases where someone has been deemed an "unreasonable burden" (e.g. homeless creating problems) no-one is going to be deported. In fact no-one tracks who's in the country and how long they stay. Certainly, for the purpose of this discussion the point is that anyone who's got EEA or Swiss citizenship can freely move and live in Portugal. So if some people in Portugal think they are being overwhelmed there is actually little they can do.
  - logifail 4y ago
    > That's academic Are you suggesting that EU citizens are allowed to stay for more than 3 months in Portugal without a residency certificate? > In fact no-one tracks who's in the country and how long they stay This is typically completely fine, right up until the moment anyone in authority gets a reason to start asking questions: "When did you arrive in Portugal, mytailorisrich?" "Ah, over three months ago. Can you show me your residency certificate?" <sucks air through teeth> "Can you explain why you didn't get a residency certificate?"

bantunes 4y ago

The golden visa program was put forward as a "job creation" initiative, but results show it generated as little as 280 jobs in a decade https://www.publico.pt/2022/11/07/politica/noticia/decada-vistos-gold-gerou-280-postos-trabalho-2026529 https://www.publico.pt/2022/11/07/politica/noticia/decada-vi... It was mostly used for wealthy foreigners to acquire real estate, hence the ire. As for AirBnb, it has decimated historical neighbourhoods in Lisbon and turned its historical areas into a kind of theme park.

smcl 4y ago
AirBnb is similarly catching flak for much of Prague's recent spike in housing costs too, and tbh I don't think it's unjustified.
itronitron 4y ago
Which should be bringing money into Lisbon to the net benefit of all people living there. If most of the theme park money isn't staying in Portugal then they should pass some legislation to favor the local economy.
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  it could be doing more damage because high house prices destroy local economy. When willvl the West finally learns the lesson that unaffordable realestate is uneconomic suicide just like unaffordable food would be
  - TheOtherHobbes 4y ago
    They don't just destroy the local economy. They also destroy trust in politics - always fragile at best - and hugely increase the odds of a racist/fascist government. We've already seen this in the UK, where a drum beat of race hate aimed at immigrants and refugees has been used to misdirect the population away from neoliberal austerity and "low tax, small government" (big profit) policies. Which - not coincidentally - include a huge amount of literal rent seeking and property profiteering.

piva00 4y ago

> The airbnb thing is more interesting and nuanced but harder to get a handle on. It might be that airbnb is causing some unhealthy things in the real estate market. I have friends living in Lisbon and Porto for 10+ years, others that were born and raised there. All of them mention how entire neighbourhoods are slowly being emptied out from locals and getting rented on AirBnB. It's more profitable to rent an apartment short-term for a season than having permanent tenants. There are neighbourhoods hollowed out from people living in them and are just boxes to be rented during peak tourism season and left empty during winter. It's not so nuanced if you see the transformation happening in your city, you notice your friends living further and further away from where they grew up, you walk through the same places and see the language being spoken on the streets is not what you were used to. You check prices for T1 and T2 apartments and they skyrocketed, are very hard to find through real estate services but can be found easily on AirBnB.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
jacquesm 4y ago
The same in Amsterdam. The 55 square meter apartment that I lived in from ages six to ten is now split into two studios rented out on AirBnB in the hipster neighborhood of 'de Pijp' for a large multiple of what it would fetch in rent (which are already way too high). This goes for many of the listings on AirBnB in Amsterdam, four stories worth of not-quite-a-hotel instead of room for four families to live are pretty common. And there always was a housing shortage in Amsterdam, now it is much worse than before.
- WeylandYutani 4y ago
  Yes but the difference is that expats in Amsterdam work for companies based in the Netherlands. They ad to the economy they aren't just here for the weather and cheap housing (nobody comes to the Netherlands for the weather and cheap housing).
  - pchangr 4y ago