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> So that's calling them wrong about whether the tests are bad. Okay, fine, you can have that opinion. What you're saying, is also just an opinion.

Dylan16807 4y ago
When I say that you can't turn their own standard against them, that is not an opinion. (Except in the "everything is an opinion" sense.) I'm asserting a fact about how words interact.
- tomlockwood 4y ago
  I'm sorry, if you don't think there are opinions about how words interact we really need to go back to fundamental philosophical basics here.
  - Dylan16807 4y ago
    I do think there can be opinions, but if you stretch that enough then at a certain point you hit "everything is an opinion" territory and then it no longer matters if you call something an "opinion". When I say your disagreement with them is an "opinion", I am not using that definition. I'm using a much more narrow definition. You have different ideas of what makes code good. Different preferences. While my argument is not based on my preferences. When I called those tests bad I was just explaining the point. It doesn't actually matter if I think the tests are bad or not. Either way the minitest devs are absolved of their own criticism. If you would like me to use a different word than "opinion", you can suggest one. The point is, please understand what I mean, and let's not argue about how to define words.
    - tomlockwood 4y ago
      > The point is, please understand what I mean, If misunderstanding is possible then clearly it's not simple to understand what people mean everytime. Maybe if you explained more clearly I'd understand why you feel your opinion is factual and feel what I say is just opinion.
      - Dylan16807 4y ago
        > You have different ideas of what makes code good. Different preferences. > my argument is not based on my preferences[...] It doesn't actually matter if I think the tests are bad or not. The thing I am calling your opinion is not your evaluation of minitest. I'm saying your evaluation of the test code is an opinion. My evaluation of the test code is also an opinion. Neither of our opinions about the test code matter here. That was what I was arguing in this post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34831045 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34831045 I don't think your attempt to turn things around into criticism of minitest is an opinion. I think it's snark that doesn't work when examined more closely.
        tomlockwood 4y ago
        This hn article is literally a link to minitest code.
        Dylan16807 4y ago
        Because it's unprofessional. Or to argue about whether the tests truly do suck. Not because you can flip the standard around and say it sucks for those same reasons it accuses some tests of sucking. The stuff you said up here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34829343 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34829343 is just wrong.
        tomlockwood 4y ago
        You're arguing that me saying minitest authors should put "i_suck" in their library name is unprofessional, on this post? It "sucks" because it has an inaccurate method name that implies an inferiority. This is my current and original criticism of the minitest devs. Your idea that I am unprofessional, is an opinion. "This method name indicates a lack of understanding that finding the right balance of speed, cost and quality is a compromise."
        Dylan16807 4y ago

Dylan16807 4y ago

When I say that you can't turn their own standard against them, that is not an opinion. (Except in the "everything is an opinion" sense.) I'm asserting a fact about how words interact.

tomlockwood 4y ago
I'm sorry, if you don't think there are opinions about how words interact we really need to go back to fundamental philosophical basics here.
- Dylan16807 4y ago
  I do think there can be opinions, but if you stretch that enough then at a certain point you hit "everything is an opinion" territory and then it no longer matters if you call something an "opinion". When I say your disagreement with them is an "opinion", I am not using that definition. I'm using a much more narrow definition. You have different ideas of what makes code good. Different preferences. While my argument is not based on my preferences. When I called those tests bad I was just explaining the point. It doesn't actually matter if I think the tests are bad or not. Either way the minitest devs are absolved of their own criticism. If you would like me to use a different word than "opinion", you can suggest one. The point is, please understand what I mean, and let's not argue about how to define words.
  - tomlockwood 4y ago
    > The point is, please understand what I mean, If misunderstanding is possible then clearly it's not simple to understand what people mean everytime. Maybe if you explained more clearly I'd understand why you feel your opinion is factual and feel what I say is just opinion.
    - Dylan16807 4y ago
      > You have different ideas of what makes code good. Different preferences. > my argument is not based on my preferences[...] It doesn't actually matter if I think the tests are bad or not. The thing I am calling your opinion is not your evaluation of minitest. I'm saying your evaluation of the test code is an opinion. My evaluation of the test code is also an opinion. Neither of our opinions about the test code matter here. That was what I was arguing in this post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34831045 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34831045 I don't think your attempt to turn things around into criticism of minitest is an opinion. I think it's snark that doesn't work when examined more closely.
      - tomlockwood 4y ago
        This hn article is literally a link to minitest code.
        Dylan16807 4y ago
        Because it's unprofessional. Or to argue about whether the tests truly do suck. Not because you can flip the standard around and say it sucks for those same reasons it accuses some tests of sucking. The stuff you said up here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34829343 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34829343 is just wrong.
        tomlockwood 4y ago
        You're arguing that me saying minitest authors should put "i_suck" in their library name is unprofessional, on this post? It "sucks" because it has an inaccurate method name that implies an inferiority. This is my current and original criticism of the minitest devs. Your idea that I am unprofessional, is an opinion. "This method name indicates a lack of understanding that finding the right balance of speed, cost and quality is a compromise."
        Dylan16807 4y ago