17 ms·

Zoning laws broadly are probably still in effect, right? I doubt you could build something industrial in residential zones. It's just the bad parts of zoning th

by occz 4y ago

Zoning laws broadly are probably still in effect, right? I doubt you could build something industrial in residential zones. It's just the bad parts of zoning that are disabled, if I understood the article correctly. Excellent development in any case. Hope a lot of good dense housing gets built.

dagurp 4y ago
City Beautiful explain it really well [1]. There will still be ordinances and deed restrictions. 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaU1UH_3B5k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaU1UH_3B5k
MarkMarine 4y ago
There was a great article about this a couple weeks back: https://darrellowens.substack.com/p/ca-cities-to-lose-all-zoning-powers https://darrellowens.substack.com/p/ca-cities-to-lose-all-zo... Basically, until these cities get a housing plan validated with the state, who is apparently sick of their crap like zoning in the middle of an active mall that will not be torn down, builder’s remedy is in place.
- davidw 4y ago
  Congrats to https://cayimby.org/ https://cayimby.org/ and https://yimbyaction.org/ https://yimbyaction.org/ for all their work on this! Great organizations to get involved with if you care about other people being able to afford a place to live.
  - encoderer 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - shuckles 4y ago
      Why is it nonsense for the state to fund shelter programs by buying out non-viable businesses (empty motels at the height of the pandemic), bailing out both business owners and building shelter capacity at much lower cost than building it new?
      - encoderer 4y ago
        Suppose you buy every hotel in the sfba and move in every homeless person, totally clearing the streets. What happens next? Just no more homeless? No, more homeless will appear. They will fill the same corners and tents that you just cleared the month before. This is not a solution. This is a grift.
        davidw 4y ago
        > No, more homeless will appear It's not like they magically respawn or something. There are people who have studied the root cause of homelessness, and: it's housing. Sure, other factors make things worse, but there's more homelessness where housing is expensive. Which stands to reason: when a thing is expensive, fewer people can afford it. https://homelessnesshousingproblem.com/ https://homelessnesshousingproblem.com/ That's why, ultimately, the biggest YIMBY win is going to be not helping out people currently homeless, but stopping the pipeline in the first place by having enough housing.
        encoderer 4y ago
        They really do re-spawn if being homeless now means being given a nice, new, clean place to live. Why wouldn’t they?
        Larrikin 4y ago
        Do you really think people with housing would become homeless in hopes of getting a new place?
        encoderer 4y ago
        I think there are a lot of people actually living with relatives and friends who would “become homeless”
        celestialcheese 4y ago
        No, but people are mobile, and the houseless are also people who communicate through the internet and share where assistance is available. If free, safe lodging is available without restrictions, demand will quickly outstrip supply with folks moving from other cities (LA, Seattle, Portland, etc) to fill the available rooms. It's a $50 bus ticket, city officials will likely fund these tickets for them to get to SF to take advantage of this. SF had programs for this exact thing to get homeless out of SF [1] 1 - https://www.vice.com/en/article/bvg7ba/instead-of-helping-homeless-people-cities-are-bussing-them-out-of-town https://www.vice.com/en/article/bvg7ba/instead-of-helping-ho...
    - davidw 4y ago
      Once someone has a home, they're no longer homeless, so it's a good strategy in some circumstances. Even where that person has other 'issues', it's a lot easier to deal with those once they're in a stable location. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/14/headway/houston-homeless-people.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/14/headway/houston-homeless-... https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2023/01/homelessness-affordable-housing-crisis-democrats-causes/672224/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2023/01/homeles...
      - Vaslo 4y ago
        [flagged]
        femiagbabiaka 4y ago
        Citing an article or publication in rebuttal would be a more productive way to make this critique..
        seattle_spring 4y ago
        Which ironically would be from something like the Daily Wire or Zero Hedge.
        jojobas 4y ago
        You can help yourself to the info on what happened when homeless people were put in hotels during covid. Most of them are homeless for because they can't live in a home.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
    - frosted-flakes 4y ago
      Seems like a decent short-term plan, if it were to be properly funded and actually run like a hotel, minus the profits.
    - mikestew 4y ago
      Other than calling "nonsense", you haven't really made the case against for something that has precedent. Care to take another whack at it?
      - encoderer 4y ago
        $550,000 a unit. Come on. You can’t be serious that this is a solution. https://apnews.com/article/lifestyle-business-health-california-coronavirus-pandemic-835c2091c63c199d397346a497e7ae49 https://apnews.com/article/lifestyle-business-health-califor...
        lapetitejort 4y ago
        > CEO John Maceri said the state has set up local governments for success, but it will take a combined effort of politicians and service providers to sustain the program. He estimates conversion costs will be far less than $550,000 per unit, the going rate for building from the ground up. I assume this is where you got your number? Why skip the "far less" part?
        encoderer 4y ago
        Just fast googling. Here’s another source at $300k - still insane. https://www.ktvu.com/news/oakland-san-francisco-awarded-grants-to-covert-hotels-into-housing-for-homeless-residents.amp https://www.ktvu.com/news/oakland-san-francisco-awarded-gran...
        sterlind 4y ago
        The only to solve homelessness in a city, definitionally, are getting the homeless to move out, or getting them housing. Given the insane real estate prices in the area, $550K seems accurate to buy them housing. Unless you plan to round them up and ship them to camps, or find a way to get them jobs that pay well enough to lease a $550K unit, you're sort of out of options.
        encoderer 4y ago
    - Fauntleroy 4y ago
      Can you elaborate on how this is "nonsense"?
- GalenErso 4y ago
  > until these cities get a housing plan validated with the state I could see the cities just refusing to submit any plans at all. The state should then make its own housing plans with the developers directly. Cities should be cut out of the loop.
  - astrange 4y ago
    If they don't submit a housing element they don't get to have zoning (as they currently don't) and then what's the point?
    - shuckles 4y ago
      There are many reasons it would be good for there to be a fallback zoning set by the state if a city is missing a housing element. For example, in that case builders could propose zoning compliance projects which have less legal ambiguity, are consistent with a general plan (and therefore already have environmental impacts studied for CEQA), and perhaps don’t have the same inclusionary zoning requirements of Builders’ Remedy projects.
  - more_corn 4y ago
    SGTM
  - MarkMarine 4y ago
    They seem to be trying any trick they can think of to avoid submitting a valid plan: https://www.sfgate.com/local/article/bay-area-towns-mull-plan-to-avoid-new-housing-17767526.php https://www.sfgate.com/local/article/bay-area-towns-mull-pla...
    - avidiax 4y ago
      I don't know if Mr. Bean would be considered developmentally disabled, but I can't get the image of him being driven around while flipping off all the affluent people that support this out of my mind :)
mike_d 4y ago
Builder's remedy forbids relevant jurisdictions from rejecting residential projects that do not comply with their existing zoning codes. A bulletin from the Association of Bay Area Governments alludes to being able to use environmental laws to block the projects instead. https://abag.ca.gov/sites/default/files/documents/2022-10/Builders-Remedy-and-Housing-Elements.pdf https://abag.ca.gov/sites/default/files/documents/2022-10/Bu...
potatolicious 4y ago
Yes, also residential "zoning laws" broadly still exist - it's just that they are state-level residential zoning regs rather than city/county ones. The implication that this is anarchy is incorrect. Construction and zoning are still highly regulated, just by someone else this time (FWIW, I fully support this and hope many projects built and cities stop crying and get in compliance with the HCD).
hardtke 4y ago
The same "Builder's Remedy" kicked in last year in many Southern California cities when they missed similar deadlines, and as far as I know it has led to approximately (if not exactly) zero new construction.
- another_story 4y ago
  How closely are you following residential home building in most of Southern California that you're able to make this statement?
- more_corn 4y ago
  Something about that turn of phrase makes me smile. Intellectual humility while making a strong statement.
- cheriot 4y ago
  It take years to get construction approved in CA so not sure the ending has been written.
- sroussey 4y ago
  Under the builder's remedy, a developer can propose any housing project, regardless of existing zoning and land use codes, and it is automatically considered “approved,” as long as it doesn't present a clear danger to public health or safety. https://smdp.com/2022/10/24/16-projects-4562-housing-units-how-did-we-get-here/ https://smdp.com/2022/10/24/16-projects-4562-housing-units-h...
- majormajor 4y ago
  It takes time. https://therealdeal.com/la/2023/01/18/shekhters-ws-communities-to-list-2000-unit-santa-monica-builders-remedy-project/ https://therealdeal.com/la/2023/01/18/shekhters-ws-communiti... Here, for instance: "Santa Monica officials later indicated they would wait to respond until WSC filed its full project application, which is due six months from the preliminary filing." Interesting that the developer that started the commotion is listing some of the sites they started the application process on for sale, but not necessarily indicative of it not going to happen - "Even as it prepares the listing WSC is still moving ahead with the full application, Walter confirmed this week." from this Jan 2023 article. Could just be looking to offload some risk to someone else who now thinks there's enough of a chance of these things getting built to pay more for the lots than they would've last year.
astrange 4y ago
Residential-only zoning is "the bad kind of zoning". It wasn't invented to keep factories away from homes; it was /literally/ invented in Berkeley to stop Chinese immigrants from being able to afford homes by running laundry businesses out of them.
- eric-hu 4y ago
  I did a search to check the history of this claim, but maybe I wasn’t searching for the right thing. Would you mind sharing a link?
  - jai_ 4y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-family_zoning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-family_zoning It's the first sentence in the History section
    - DiggyJohnson 4y ago
      I admittedly rolled my eyes at the WP link. To atone for this, I’ve copy and pasted the relevant references from that line in the History section: [1] Baldassari, Erin; Solomon, Molly (October 5, 2020). "The Racist History of Single-Family Home Zoning". NPR. Archived from the original on November 14, 2020. https://web.archive.org/web/20201114004918/https://www.kqed.org/news/11840548/the-racist-history-of-single-family-home-zoning https://web.archive.org/web/20201114004918/https://www.kqed.... [3] Hansen, Louis (March 1, 2021). "Is this the end of single-family zoning in the Bay Area? San Jose, Berkeley, other cities consider sweeping changes". San Jose Mercury News. https://www.mercurynews.com/2021/03/01/is-this-the-end-of-single-family-zoning-in-the-bay-area/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2021/03/01/is-this-the-end-of-si... [4] Ruggiero, Angela (February 24, 2021). "Berkeley to end single-family residential zoning, citing racist ties". San Jose Mercury News. https://www.mercurynews.com/2021/02/24/berkeley-to-end-single-family-residential-zoning-citing-racist-ties/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2021/02/24/berkeley-to-end-singl... [5] Yelimeli, Supriya (February 24, 2021). "Berkeley denounces racist history of single-family zoning, begins 2-year process to change general plan - Council unanimously approved a resolution that will work toward banning single-family zoning". Berkeleyside. https://web.archive.org/web/20210301140957/https://www.berkeleyside.com/2021/02/24/berkeley-denounces-racist-history-of-single-family-zoning-begins-2-year-process-to-change-general-plan https://web.archive.org/web/20210301140957/https://www.berke... [8] Baldassari, Erin (March 13, 2021). "Facing Housing Crunch, California Cities Rethink Single-Family Neighborhoods". NPR. Archived from the original on March 31, 2021. https://web.archive.org/web/20210331194917/https://www.npr.org/2021/03/13/973770308/facing-housing-crunch-california-cities-rethink-single-family-neighborhoods https://web.archive.org/web/20210331194917/https://www.npr.o...
Karrot_Kream 4y ago
The builder's remedy applies to housing and only housing. Nothing else. It doesn't, however, stop developers from proposing housing projects in non-residential zones.
twblalock 4y ago
Most of the existing lots aren't big enough for large developments. It's probably going to be more of what we have -- relatively low-rise apartment complexes and townhouses, with carport parking or garages underneath. I'd also expect more people who have space for ADUs to build them, although many of the lots aren't the right size or shape to fit one. The really big, dense housing projects are being built on commercial land -- stuff like what is being built in downtown Sunnyvale, Santa Clara Square, Lawrence Station, and the proposed replacement of Cambrian Plaza. Notably, all that big stuff is either already finished, or in the process of building, and didn't need the builder's remedy to get done.

by occz 4y ago

dagurp 4y ago

City Beautiful explain it really well [1]. There will still be ordinances and deed restrictions. 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaU1UH_3B5k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaU1UH_3B5k

MarkMarine 4y ago

There was a great article about this a couple weeks back: https://darrellowens.substack.com/p/ca-cities-to-lose-all-zoning-powers https://darrellowens.substack.com/p/ca-cities-to-lose-all-zo... Basically, until these cities get a housing plan validated with the state, who is apparently sick of their crap like zoning in the middle of an active mall that will not be torn down, builder’s remedy is in place.

davidw 4y ago
Congrats to https://cayimby.org/ https://cayimby.org/ and https://yimbyaction.org/ https://yimbyaction.org/ for all their work on this! Great organizations to get involved with if you care about other people being able to afford a place to live.
- encoderer 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - shuckles 4y ago
    Why is it nonsense for the state to fund shelter programs by buying out non-viable businesses (empty motels at the height of the pandemic), bailing out both business owners and building shelter capacity at much lower cost than building it new?
    - encoderer 4y ago
      Suppose you buy every hotel in the sfba and move in every homeless person, totally clearing the streets. What happens next? Just no more homeless? No, more homeless will appear. They will fill the same corners and tents that you just cleared the month before. This is not a solution. This is a grift.
      - davidw 4y ago
        > No, more homeless will appear It's not like they magically respawn or something. There are people who have studied the root cause of homelessness, and: it's housing. Sure, other factors make things worse, but there's more homelessness where housing is expensive. Which stands to reason: when a thing is expensive, fewer people can afford it. https://homelessnesshousingproblem.com/ https://homelessnesshousingproblem.com/ That's why, ultimately, the biggest YIMBY win is going to be not helping out people currently homeless, but stopping the pipeline in the first place by having enough housing.
        encoderer 4y ago
        They really do re-spawn if being homeless now means being given a nice, new, clean place to live. Why wouldn’t they?
        Larrikin 4y ago
        Do you really think people with housing would become homeless in hopes of getting a new place?
        encoderer 4y ago
        I think there are a lot of people actually living with relatives and friends who would “become homeless”
        celestialcheese 4y ago
        No, but people are mobile, and the houseless are also people who communicate through the internet and share where assistance is available. If free, safe lodging is available without restrictions, demand will quickly outstrip supply with folks moving from other cities (LA, Seattle, Portland, etc) to fill the available rooms. It's a $50 bus ticket, city officials will likely fund these tickets for them to get to SF to take advantage of this. SF had programs for this exact thing to get homeless out of SF [1] 1 - https://www.vice.com/en/article/bvg7ba/instead-of-helping-homeless-people-cities-are-bussing-them-out-of-town https://www.vice.com/en/article/bvg7ba/instead-of-helping-ho...
  - davidw 4y ago
    Once someone has a home, they're no longer homeless, so it's a good strategy in some circumstances. Even where that person has other 'issues', it's a lot easier to deal with those once they're in a stable location. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/14/headway/houston-homeless-people.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/14/headway/houston-homeless-... https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2023/01/homelessness-affordable-housing-crisis-democrats-causes/672224/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2023/01/homeles...
    - Vaslo 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - femiagbabiaka 4y ago
        Citing an article or publication in rebuttal would be a more productive way to make this critique..
        seattle_spring 4y ago
        Which ironically would be from something like the Daily Wire or Zero Hedge.
        jojobas 4y ago
        You can help yourself to the info on what happened when homeless people were put in hotels during covid. Most of them are homeless for because they can't live in a home.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - frosted-flakes 4y ago
    Seems like a decent short-term plan, if it were to be properly funded and actually run like a hotel, minus the profits.
  - mikestew 4y ago
    Other than calling "nonsense", you haven't really made the case against for something that has precedent. Care to take another whack at it?
    - encoderer 4y ago
      $550,000 a unit. Come on. You can’t be serious that this is a solution. https://apnews.com/article/lifestyle-business-health-california-coronavirus-pandemic-835c2091c63c199d397346a497e7ae49 https://apnews.com/article/lifestyle-business-health-califor...
      - lapetitejort 4y ago
        > CEO John Maceri said the state has set up local governments for success, but it will take a combined effort of politicians and service providers to sustain the program. He estimates conversion costs will be far less than $550,000 per unit, the going rate for building from the ground up. I assume this is where you got your number? Why skip the "far less" part?
        encoderer 4y ago
        Just fast googling. Here’s another source at $300k - still insane. https://www.ktvu.com/news/oakland-san-francisco-awarded-grants-to-covert-hotels-into-housing-for-homeless-residents.amp https://www.ktvu.com/news/oakland-san-francisco-awarded-gran...
      - sterlind 4y ago
        The only to solve homelessness in a city, definitionally, are getting the homeless to move out, or getting them housing. Given the insane real estate prices in the area, $550K seems accurate to buy them housing. Unless you plan to round them up and ship them to camps, or find a way to get them jobs that pay well enough to lease a $550K unit, you're sort of out of options.
        encoderer 4y ago
  - Fauntleroy 4y ago
    Can you elaborate on how this is "nonsense"?
GalenErso 4y ago
> until these cities get a housing plan validated with the state I could see the cities just refusing to submit any plans at all. The state should then make its own housing plans with the developers directly. Cities should be cut out of the loop.
- astrange 4y ago
  If they don't submit a housing element they don't get to have zoning (as they currently don't) and then what's the point?
  - shuckles 4y ago
    There are many reasons it would be good for there to be a fallback zoning set by the state if a city is missing a housing element. For example, in that case builders could propose zoning compliance projects which have less legal ambiguity, are consistent with a general plan (and therefore already have environmental impacts studied for CEQA), and perhaps don’t have the same inclusionary zoning requirements of Builders’ Remedy projects.
- more_corn 4y ago
  SGTM
- MarkMarine 4y ago
  They seem to be trying any trick they can think of to avoid submitting a valid plan: https://www.sfgate.com/local/article/bay-area-towns-mull-plan-to-avoid-new-housing-17767526.php https://www.sfgate.com/local/article/bay-area-towns-mull-pla...
  - avidiax 4y ago
    I don't know if Mr. Bean would be considered developmentally disabled, but I can't get the image of him being driven around while flipping off all the affluent people that support this out of my mind :)

mike_d 4y ago

Builder's remedy forbids relevant jurisdictions from rejecting residential projects that do not comply with their existing zoning codes. A bulletin from the Association of Bay Area Governments alludes to being able to use environmental laws to block the projects instead. https://abag.ca.gov/sites/default/files/documents/2022-10/Builders-Remedy-and-Housing-Elements.pdf https://abag.ca.gov/sites/default/files/documents/2022-10/Bu...

potatolicious 4y ago

Yes, also residential "zoning laws" broadly still exist - it's just that they are state-level residential zoning regs rather than city/county ones. The implication that this is anarchy is incorrect. Construction and zoning are still highly regulated, just by someone else this time (FWIW, I fully support this and hope many projects built and cities stop crying and get in compliance with the HCD).

hardtke 4y ago

The same "Builder's Remedy" kicked in last year in many Southern California cities when they missed similar deadlines, and as far as I know it has led to approximately (if not exactly) zero new construction.

another_story 4y ago
How closely are you following residential home building in most of Southern California that you're able to make this statement?
more_corn 4y ago
Something about that turn of phrase makes me smile. Intellectual humility while making a strong statement.
cheriot 4y ago
It take years to get construction approved in CA so not sure the ending has been written.
sroussey 4y ago
Under the builder's remedy, a developer can propose any housing project, regardless of existing zoning and land use codes, and it is automatically considered “approved,” as long as it doesn't present a clear danger to public health or safety. https://smdp.com/2022/10/24/16-projects-4562-housing-units-how-did-we-get-here/ https://smdp.com/2022/10/24/16-projects-4562-housing-units-h...
majormajor 4y ago
It takes time. https://therealdeal.com/la/2023/01/18/shekhters-ws-communities-to-list-2000-unit-santa-monica-builders-remedy-project/ https://therealdeal.com/la/2023/01/18/shekhters-ws-communiti... Here, for instance: "Santa Monica officials later indicated they would wait to respond until WSC filed its full project application, which is due six months from the preliminary filing." Interesting that the developer that started the commotion is listing some of the sites they started the application process on for sale, but not necessarily indicative of it not going to happen - "Even as it prepares the listing WSC is still moving ahead with the full application, Walter confirmed this week." from this Jan 2023 article. Could just be looking to offload some risk to someone else who now thinks there's enough of a chance of these things getting built to pay more for the lots than they would've last year.

astrange 4y ago

Residential-only zoning is "the bad kind of zoning". It wasn't invented to keep factories away from homes; it was /literally/ invented in Berkeley to stop Chinese immigrants from being able to afford homes by running laundry businesses out of them.

eric-hu 4y ago
I did a search to check the history of this claim, but maybe I wasn’t searching for the right thing. Would you mind sharing a link?
- jai_ 4y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-family_zoning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-family_zoning It's the first sentence in the History section
  - DiggyJohnson 4y ago
    I admittedly rolled my eyes at the WP link. To atone for this, I’ve copy and pasted the relevant references from that line in the History section: [1] Baldassari, Erin; Solomon, Molly (October 5, 2020). "The Racist History of Single-Family Home Zoning". NPR. Archived from the original on November 14, 2020. https://web.archive.org/web/20201114004918/https://www.kqed.org/news/11840548/the-racist-history-of-single-family-home-zoning https://web.archive.org/web/20201114004918/https://www.kqed.... [3] Hansen, Louis (March 1, 2021). "Is this the end of single-family zoning in the Bay Area? San Jose, Berkeley, other cities consider sweeping changes". San Jose Mercury News. https://www.mercurynews.com/2021/03/01/is-this-the-end-of-single-family-zoning-in-the-bay-area/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2021/03/01/is-this-the-end-of-si... [4] Ruggiero, Angela (February 24, 2021). "Berkeley to end single-family residential zoning, citing racist ties". San Jose Mercury News. https://www.mercurynews.com/2021/02/24/berkeley-to-end-single-family-residential-zoning-citing-racist-ties/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2021/02/24/berkeley-to-end-singl... [5] Yelimeli, Supriya (February 24, 2021). "Berkeley denounces racist history of single-family zoning, begins 2-year process to change general plan - Council unanimously approved a resolution that will work toward banning single-family zoning". Berkeleyside. https://web.archive.org/web/20210301140957/https://www.berkeleyside.com/2021/02/24/berkeley-denounces-racist-history-of-single-family-zoning-begins-2-year-process-to-change-general-plan https://web.archive.org/web/20210301140957/https://www.berke... [8] Baldassari, Erin (March 13, 2021). "Facing Housing Crunch, California Cities Rethink Single-Family Neighborhoods". NPR. Archived from the original on March 31, 2021. https://web.archive.org/web/20210331194917/https://www.npr.org/2021/03/13/973770308/facing-housing-crunch-california-cities-rethink-single-family-neighborhoods https://web.archive.org/web/20210331194917/https://www.npr.o...

Karrot_Kream 4y ago

The builder's remedy applies to housing and only housing. Nothing else. It doesn't, however, stop developers from proposing housing projects in non-residential zones.

twblalock 4y ago

Most of the existing lots aren't big enough for large developments. It's probably going to be more of what we have -- relatively low-rise apartment complexes and townhouses, with carport parking or garages underneath. I'd also expect more people who have space for ADUs to build them, although many of the lots aren't the right size or shape to fit one. The really big, dense housing projects are being built on commercial land -- stuff like what is being built in downtown Sunnyvale, Santa Clara Square, Lawrence Station, and the proposed replacement of Cambrian Plaza. Notably, all that big stuff is either already finished, or in the process of building, and didn't need the builder's remedy to get done.