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> to react with a reflex consideration ... because "otherwise Sydney would be sad". I think this is wrong, because in general, when analogy is good, it is typ

> to react with a reflex consideration ... because "otherwise Sydney would be sad". I think this is wrong, because in general, when analogy is good, it is typically good because of the tendency toward allowing for reflex responses. It can't be good and bad for the same reason. It needs to be for a different reason or there isn't logical consistency. I'll try to explain what I mean by that in an empirical context so you can observe that my model makes general predictions about cognition related to analogical reasoning. If you have an agent with a lookup table that is the perfect bayesian estimates versus an agent which has to compute the perfect bayesian estimates and there is an aspect of judgement related to time to response - which is a very true aspect of our reality - reflex agents actually out-compete the bayesian agent because they get the same estimate, but minimize response time. So it can't be the reflex itself which makes an analogical structure bad, since that is also what makes it good. It has to be something else, something which is separate from the reflex itself and tied to the observed utilities as a result of that reflex. > imagine someone buying a product recommended by ChatGPT because "otherwise Sydney would be sad". Okay. Lets do that. If Sydney claims that they would be sad if you don't eat the right amount of vitamin C after you describe symptoms of scurvy, it actually isn't unreasonable to take vitamin C. If you did that, because she said she would be sad, presumably you would be better off. Your expected utilities are better, not worse, by taking vitamin C. > programmed to maximize the profits of Microsoft This isn't the objective function of the model. That it might be an objective for people who worked on it does not mean that its responses are congruent with actually doing this. --- I think to fix your point you would need to change it something like "The way anthropomorphism can be problematic is if it causes a human to react with a reflex consideration for the (simulated) feelings of the machine and this behavior ultimately results in negative utility. Ultimately the behavior of the large language model is learned weights which optimize an objective function that corresponds to seeming like a proper response such that it gets good feedback from humans - so imagine someone getting bad advice that seems reasonable and acting on it, like a code change proposal that on first glance looks good, but in actuality has subtle bugs. Yet, when questioning for the presence of bugs, Sydney implies that not trusting their code to work makes them sad... so the person commits the change without testing it thoroughly. Later, the life support has a race condition as a result of the bug. A hundred people die over ten years before the root cause is determined. No one is sure what other deaths are going to happen, because the type of mistake is one that humans didn't make, but AI do, so people aren't used to seeing it." I think this is better because it actually ties things to the utilities, rather than the speed of the decision making. You can't generalize speed being bad. It fails in most generalized contexts. You can generalize bad utilities being bad.

joe_the_user 4y ago
> I think this is wrong, because in general, when analogy is good, it is typically good because of the tendency toward allowing for reflex responses. It can't be good and bad for the same reason. It needs to be for a different reason or there isn't logical consistency. That's some weird reasoning. Human emotions are crucial to human existence but we know they also can have bad results. But when emotions are useful to us, it's because we know other people will react similarly to us in a consistent manner. When they're bad, it's generally because someone understands and is using a reaction to get something unrelated to our personal needs and desires. >> ...programmed to maximize the profits of Microsoft > This isn't the objective function of the model. That it might be an objective for people who worked on it does not mean that its responses are congruent with actually doing this. It will be. You can observe the evolution of Google's search system and it has converged to it's current of pushing stuff to sell before everything else. The charter of a public company is maximizing returns to share holders. That is the task of the entire organization --> You're fixing of my argument is OK but it's pretty easy to imagine it and others from the initial argument imo.
- JoshCole 4y ago
  > It will be. You can observe the evolution of Google's search system and it has converged to it's current of pushing stuff to sell before everything else. The charter of a public company is maximizing returns to share holders. That is the task of the entire organization Yeah, probably it will evolve in that direction. I could imagine that happening. > That's some weird reasoning. In the AI textbooks I've read, reflex is defined in the context of a reflex agent. You would have sentences like "a reflex agent reacts without thinking" and then an example of that might be "a human who puts their hand on a stove yanks it away without thinking about it" and this is rational because the decision problem doesn't call for correct cognition - it calls for minimization of response time such that the hand isn't burned. To me, when you say reflex decision making is the reason for the danger, it seems to me that this is an inconsistent reason because for other decision making problems, reflex is a help, not a hindrance. I do not consider it wrong to or weird reasoning to use definitions sourced from AI research. I think, given your confusion at my post, you probably weren't intending to argue that being faster means being wrong, but the structure of your reply read that way to me because of the strong association I have for that word and reflex as it relates to optimal decision making by an AI under time constraints. I also think is what you actually said, even if you didn't intend to, but I don't doubt you if you say you meant it another way, because language is imprecise enough that we have to arrive on shared definitions in order to understand each other and it is by no means certain that we start on shared definitions. I'm also kind of way too literal sometimes. Side-effect of being a programmer, I suppose. And I take this subject way too seriously, because I agree with Paul Graham about surface area of a general idea multiplying impact potential. So I'm trying really really really hard to think well - uh, for example, I've been thinking about this almost continuously whenever I reasonably could ever since my first reply, unable to stop. It is 1:32 AM for me. I'm taking multiple continuous hours of thinking about this and writing about this and trying to be clear in my thinking about this, because I find it so important. So hopefully that gets across how I am as a person - even if it makes me seem really weird. > You're fixing of my argument is OK but it's pretty easy to imagine it and others from the initial argument imo. I'm really trying to drive at the deeper fundamental truths. I feel like logic and analogy are really important and profound and worthy of countless hours of thought about and that the effort will ultimately be rewarded.

joe_the_user 4y ago

> I think this is wrong, because in general, when analogy is good, it is typically good because of the tendency toward allowing for reflex responses. It can't be good and bad for the same reason. It needs to be for a different reason or there isn't logical consistency. That's some weird reasoning. Human emotions are crucial to human existence but we know they also can have bad results. But when emotions are useful to us, it's because we know other people will react similarly to us in a consistent manner. When they're bad, it's generally because someone understands and is using a reaction to get something unrelated to our personal needs and desires. >> ...programmed to maximize the profits of Microsoft > This isn't the objective function of the model. That it might be an objective for people who worked on it does not mean that its responses are congruent with actually doing this. It will be. You can observe the evolution of Google's search system and it has converged to it's current of pushing stuff to sell before everything else. The charter of a public company is maximizing returns to share holders. That is the task of the entire organization --> You're fixing of my argument is OK but it's pretty easy to imagine it and others from the initial argument imo.

JoshCole 4y ago
> It will be. You can observe the evolution of Google's search system and it has converged to it's current of pushing stuff to sell before everything else. The charter of a public company is maximizing returns to share holders. That is the task of the entire organization Yeah, probably it will evolve in that direction. I could imagine that happening. > That's some weird reasoning. In the AI textbooks I've read, reflex is defined in the context of a reflex agent. You would have sentences like "a reflex agent reacts without thinking" and then an example of that might be "a human who puts their hand on a stove yanks it away without thinking about it" and this is rational because the decision problem doesn't call for correct cognition - it calls for minimization of response time such that the hand isn't burned. To me, when you say reflex decision making is the reason for the danger, it seems to me that this is an inconsistent reason because for other decision making problems, reflex is a help, not a hindrance. I do not consider it wrong to or weird reasoning to use definitions sourced from AI research. I think, given your confusion at my post, you probably weren't intending to argue that being faster means being wrong, but the structure of your reply read that way to me because of the strong association I have for that word and reflex as it relates to optimal decision making by an AI under time constraints. I also think is what you actually said, even if you didn't intend to, but I don't doubt you if you say you meant it another way, because language is imprecise enough that we have to arrive on shared definitions in order to understand each other and it is by no means certain that we start on shared definitions. I'm also kind of way too literal sometimes. Side-effect of being a programmer, I suppose. And I take this subject way too seriously, because I agree with Paul Graham about surface area of a general idea multiplying impact potential. So I'm trying really really really hard to think well - uh, for example, I've been thinking about this almost continuously whenever I reasonably could ever since my first reply, unable to stop. It is 1:32 AM for me. I'm taking multiple continuous hours of thinking about this and writing about this and trying to be clear in my thinking about this, because I find it so important. So hopefully that gets across how I am as a person - even if it makes me seem really weird. > You're fixing of my argument is OK but it's pretty easy to imagine it and others from the initial argument imo. I'm really trying to drive at the deeper fundamental truths. I feel like logic and analogy are really important and profound and worthy of countless hours of thought about and that the effort will ultimately be rewarded.