9 ms·

China’s police are ensnaring thousands of suspects abroad

197 points by sohkamyung 4y ago

anotherhue 4y ago
Irish Times- Why is there a Chinese police outpost on Dublin’s Capel Street? https://archive.ph/zQuXW https://archive.ph/zQuXW
- hef19898 4y ago
  One could make the case, that the people working there should be a) arrested or b) expelled from the country. Same goes for every other nation in which China maintains those stations, they are all over Europe it seems. But hey, at least China is doing it themselves instead ofisusing Interpol red notices like other authoritarian regimes do.
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > people working there should be a) arrested or b) expelled from the country If they’ve threatened or kidnapped someone on behalf of the CCP, they should be tried as what they are: covert agents, possibly of an adversary.
    - hef19898 4y ago
      Absolutely. That's not gonna happen so, is it? And from a very cynical poijt of view I get it, this is basically an intelligence (as in spy craft during the cold war) war. And our Western intel services propably have a high interest in learbing as much as they can about the methods, tools and operations of their Chinese counterparts. And as long as China only kidnaps and harasses their own people, who cares? Heck, even if it would be "own" people, it would still be a trade-off.
      - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
        > as long as China only kidnaps and harasses their own people, who cares They’re also Americans and Britons. Most people do care. In America, I find it highly unlikely we won’t see a push for severe prosecution of this. There is no downside; you can still get counterintel by sealing records and moling them.
    - euroderf 4y ago
      I would have trouble imagining, in the 1980s, a KGB station on M Street NW, DC. So what's with Chinese police stations ?
bohadi 4y ago
Late to the thread but to make a comparison here are American[1] and Chinese[2] "extradition treaty blocs", 150 ~ 50 countries. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_extradition_treaties#/media/File:US_extradition_treaties.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_extradit... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition_law_in_China#/media/File:China_extradition_treaties.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition_law_in_China#/medi... Interestingly if you are keen to slip the grasp of law enforcement (note: this is no sanction of illegal activity of any sort), and you reside in, for example, Australia Turkiye or Mexico, you are within the extradition jurisdiction to either China or USA, a kind of extremal legal coverage/exposure. The caveat being, there is a concept called dual criminality which is essentially the intersection of crimes from the one country and the extraditing country. Extra credit: 1997 congressional report on the unprecendented (at the time) US-Hong Kong extradition treaty. [3] https://www.congress.gov/congressional-report/105th-congress/executive-report/2/1 https://www.congress.gov/congressional-report/105th-congress...
thablackbull 4y ago
[flagged]
- albertopv 4y ago
  There have been a lot of criticism about that at the time in Italy, investigations and even a trial IIRC. So, these things happened, but weren't blindly accepted, at least not in Italy.
  - thablackbull 4y ago
    I'm just trying to understand the context of the 'arrests' as the article is paywalled. I'm not making any justifications in either of the cases, not sure why you feel the need to downvote a simple question for clarification.
    - nosianu 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - m000 4y ago
        [flagged]
        nosianu 4y ago
        [flagged]
      - thablackbull 4y ago
        > First, you asked about the US when this article is about China, a very well known tactic, thank you very much. I'm American. I'm much more well versed in American issues and this is the first story that popped into my mind which I can bring up as a parallel. > Second, you really want us to believe China's attempts at getting at its critics is the same as the US trying to get at a terror suspect? As I clarified, as I couldn't read the full article, I am admitting I don't know - it would be great if the article had clarified down the way on what exactly their position is and someone had quoted it. > If you want to criticize the US go ahead in the appropriate thread, there's plenty to criticize. I love American thank you very much.
wolverine876 4y ago
These forces are used to spy on, harass, and oppress Chinese dissidents and human rights advocates. You can find many other news sources focused on that: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=chinese+police+new+york&iar=news&ia=news https://duckduckgo.com/?q=chinese+police+new+york&iar=news&i... Including the NY Times: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=chinese+police+new+york+site%3Anytimes.com&ia=web https://duckduckgo.com/?q=chinese+police+new+york+site%3Anyt... Why did the Economist omit that entirely (unless I overlooked something)? Also, why repeat Chinese government claims that these are criminals, using the word 'alleged' only in the first paragraph. Xi's crackdowns on fraud, etc. are at least in part crackdowns on political enemies - it's a basic tactic in the dictator's playbook. I haven't read The Economist in a long time. Do they look the other way on China?
- Swenrekcah 4y ago
  I don’t see how this article can be read as “looking the other way” in any sense.
  - jojobas 4y ago
    The alternative of "looking the other way" is "tried to fight it but China won".
  - daniel-s 4y ago
    One way you can push propaganda as an agent is not to promote something obviously bad, especially if you would never get away with it, but to criticise it less than it deserves. Not saying it's happening in this case, but suppose you're the Economist and want to win favour with the Chinese. You might consider an article criticising this activity as infringing on the sovereignty of the west and others in the pursuit of justice, rather than in the pursuit of destroying political opposition.
    - wolverine876 4y ago
      > You might consider an article criticising this activity as infringing on the sovereignty of the west and others in the pursuit of justice Yes, it reads to me like an implicit justification, an argument that the issues are merely legal, about sovereignty, and not moral and political, an attack on innocent people and on freedom.
potatofarmer45 4y ago
What people don't realize is that extra-judicial "persuasion" is also commonly applied for strategic business interests. I recall a discussion with a someone at an electronics company a while ago where they described recent breaches and leaks of IP to Chinese state companies by unwitting employees pressured by these extra-judicial police.
- runnerup 4y ago
  nitpick: not sure if those employees would be "unwitting", probably closer to "unwilling" or something along those lines
  - prox 4y ago
    Coerced?
- BlueTemplar 4y ago
  No question that this is a threat, but at this point I also feel compelled to point out that the US(&UK) judiciary has been accused of the same : 1.) https://www.economist.com/business/2019/01/17/how-the-american-takeover-of-a-french-national-champion-became-intertwined-in-a-corruption-investigation https://www.economist.com/business/2019/01/17/how-the-americ... (Notably, some of the most vocal opponents of Macron go as far as to accuse him of treason for personal gain in this case, though their case is IMHO kind of thin.) 2.) https://www.bbc.com/news/business-51277946 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-51277946 Tom Enders, his compliance officer John Harrison, DARPA's & silicon valley's Paul Eremenko and others have been accused of (ab)using this probe with the result that Airbus' strategic information (including business one) became openly accessible to the USA, and through them, to their competitor : Boeing. 3.) Not to be forgotten : https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32542140 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32542140
  - ryaniscool 4y ago
    I'm not seeing the similarities to what the parent comment describes. The people accused of participating of wrongdoing in these articles weren't pressured to participate by threats to their families from their "home" government. They did it for personal gain.
AbusiveHNAdmin 4y ago
[flagged]
- kataklasm 4y ago
  https://archive.is/f2yPr https://archive.is/f2yPr
Broken_Hippo 4y ago
https://archive.is/xv9nV https://archive.is/xv9nV
cm2012 4y ago
China is really terrifying. I watched a video today of them taking pets from people and beating those pets to death as an anti covid measure this year. A billion plus people, largely uneducated, run by a despotic dictator- scary shit.
- DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - tkanarsky 4y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes
    - libraryatnight 4y ago
      Putin really does love that Soviet playbook.
    - DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
      https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hypocrisy https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hypocrisy If you're going to condemn an entire country based on local police killing a dog, surely the fact that police in your country frequently beat human beings to death is relevant.
  - eptcyka 4y ago
    Has it saved lives?
    - DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
      Yes, undoubtedly. China got through the most difficult part of the pandemic, when there were no vaccines, without letting the virus spread. Over 90% of the Chinese population was fully vaccinated before the zero-CoVID policy was dropped. The biggest failure was that the vaccination rate was lower among the elderly. That's a problem that affects the Chinese cultural sphere, including Taiwan and Singapore.
chloerei 4y ago
[flagged]
markdown 4y ago
I don't know if it's mentioned in this paywalled article, but a few years ago Chinese police came to Fiji and arrested 77 people they claimed were Chinese criminals. They put them on a chartered plane and flew them back to China. Fiji's then government let this happen and even helped them. They were not given their day in (a Fijian) court... simply bundled into a plane and flown away on the say-so of the Chinese. China will pull these stunts elsewhere if they can get away with it. Fiji has a new govt now that wouldn't allow this. Choose good leaders.
yellow_lead 4y ago
> In an article in 2021 two scholars from Jilin University warned that pressure on police to achieve success in the repatriation of fugitives could easily lead to the use of “inappropriate” methods, including “threatening and terrorising” suspects and putting pressure on their relatives. If you owe money or are wanted in China, the government may go after your family to pressure you to return. This pressure can be as extreme as keeping your family members' kids from attending school.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- Hounddog11 4y ago
  If only this was limited to debtors and criminals. China uses these kind of pressures to suppress political dissent even among Chinese citizens living abroad - for example, Chinese students studying at foreign universities. Here's one account: > [W]hen I was a lecturer it was relatively common to go through an entire semester without a single criticism of the Chinese regime by Chinese students in front of their classmates. Occasionally, a courageous student would privately explain why. Students who voiced objections were monitored by their classmates and denounced to the home government. They in turn had representatives within the student bodies whose job it was to warn students about their activism and remind them of the consequences of dissent. By making sure the students knew they were being watched, the students would self-censor (as a minimum requirement) or defend China in whatever debate was taking place. > In this way, the Chinese students provide something priceless to the cultivation of China’s national image—they make the regime appear to be popular at home. Ask a Chinese student (from the mainland) in public whether or not they approve of Chinese government policies, and you’re likely to get either a nervous and uncertain reply, and possibly a question about why a Westerner cares about Chinese affairs, or you’ll be provided with a vigorous defence of China’s reputation. This isn’t accidental. This is a product of deliberate, well considered policies, crafted by a dictatorship to subvert countervailing foreign policy initiatives. https://archive.is/XucW7 https://archive.is/XucW7
  - DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 4y ago
Will the evil win in the end? They learned to totally control their populations. AI technology helps a lot with this, unfortunately. So once a country falls into a dictatorship black hole, there seems to be no way back. Will the entire world fall into this, one country after the other?
AbusiveHNAdmin 4y ago
I said PAYWALLED, which was true, and there was no alternate link. Why UP-vote inaccessible content, and then go apeshit when someone points it out? Hacker News is degraded by this infantile, hypocritical behavior. Why perpetuate, let alone PROMOTE it? Downvote the inaccessible CONTENT, not the remark about it. DUH.

197 points by sohkamyung 4y ago

Irish Times- Why is there a Chinese police outpost on Dublin’s Capel Street? https://archive.ph/zQuXW https://archive.ph/zQuXW

hef19898 4y ago
One could make the case, that the people working there should be a) arrested or b) expelled from the country. Same goes for every other nation in which China maintains those stations, they are all over Europe it seems. But hey, at least China is doing it themselves instead ofisusing Interpol red notices like other authoritarian regimes do.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > people working there should be a) arrested or b) expelled from the country If they’ve threatened or kidnapped someone on behalf of the CCP, they should be tried as what they are: covert agents, possibly of an adversary.
  - hef19898 4y ago
    Absolutely. That's not gonna happen so, is it? And from a very cynical poijt of view I get it, this is basically an intelligence (as in spy craft during the cold war) war. And our Western intel services propably have a high interest in learbing as much as they can about the methods, tools and operations of their Chinese counterparts. And as long as China only kidnaps and harasses their own people, who cares? Heck, even if it would be "own" people, it would still be a trade-off.
    - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
      > as long as China only kidnaps and harasses their own people, who cares They’re also Americans and Britons. Most people do care. In America, I find it highly unlikely we won’t see a push for severe prosecution of this. There is no downside; you can still get counterintel by sealing records and moling them.
  - euroderf 4y ago
    I would have trouble imagining, in the 1980s, a KGB station on M Street NW, DC. So what's with Chinese police stations ?

bohadi 4y ago

Late to the thread but to make a comparison here are American[1] and Chinese[2] "extradition treaty blocs", 150 ~ 50 countries. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_extradition_treaties#/media/File:US_extradition_treaties.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_extradit... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition_law_in_China#/media/File:China_extradition_treaties.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition_law_in_China#/medi... Interestingly if you are keen to slip the grasp of law enforcement (note: this is no sanction of illegal activity of any sort), and you reside in, for example, Australia Turkiye or Mexico, you are within the extradition jurisdiction to either China or USA, a kind of extremal legal coverage/exposure. The caveat being, there is a concept called dual criminality which is essentially the intersection of crimes from the one country and the extraditing country. Extra credit: 1997 congressional report on the unprecendented (at the time) US-Hong Kong extradition treaty. [3] https://www.congress.gov/congressional-report/105th-congress/executive-report/2/1 https://www.congress.gov/congressional-report/105th-congress...

thablackbull 4y ago

[flagged]

albertopv 4y ago
There have been a lot of criticism about that at the time in Italy, investigations and even a trial IIRC. So, these things happened, but weren't blindly accepted, at least not in Italy.
- thablackbull 4y ago
  I'm just trying to understand the context of the 'arrests' as the article is paywalled. I'm not making any justifications in either of the cases, not sure why you feel the need to downvote a simple question for clarification.
  - nosianu 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - m000 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - nosianu 4y ago
        [flagged]
    - thablackbull 4y ago
      > First, you asked about the US when this article is about China, a very well known tactic, thank you very much. I'm American. I'm much more well versed in American issues and this is the first story that popped into my mind which I can bring up as a parallel. > Second, you really want us to believe China's attempts at getting at its critics is the same as the US trying to get at a terror suspect? As I clarified, as I couldn't read the full article, I am admitting I don't know - it would be great if the article had clarified down the way on what exactly their position is and someone had quoted it. > If you want to criticize the US go ahead in the appropriate thread, there's plenty to criticize. I love American thank you very much.

wolverine876 4y ago

These forces are used to spy on, harass, and oppress Chinese dissidents and human rights advocates. You can find many other news sources focused on that: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=chinese+police+new+york&iar=news&ia=news https://duckduckgo.com/?q=chinese+police+new+york&iar=news&i... Including the NY Times: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=chinese+police+new+york+site%3Anytimes.com&ia=web https://duckduckgo.com/?q=chinese+police+new+york+site%3Anyt... Why did the Economist omit that entirely (unless I overlooked something)? Also, why repeat Chinese government claims that these are criminals, using the word 'alleged' only in the first paragraph. Xi's crackdowns on fraud, etc. are at least in part crackdowns on political enemies - it's a basic tactic in the dictator's playbook. I haven't read The Economist in a long time. Do they look the other way on China?

Swenrekcah 4y ago
I don’t see how this article can be read as “looking the other way” in any sense.
- jojobas 4y ago
  The alternative of "looking the other way" is "tried to fight it but China won".
- daniel-s 4y ago
  One way you can push propaganda as an agent is not to promote something obviously bad, especially if you would never get away with it, but to criticise it less than it deserves. Not saying it's happening in this case, but suppose you're the Economist and want to win favour with the Chinese. You might consider an article criticising this activity as infringing on the sovereignty of the west and others in the pursuit of justice, rather than in the pursuit of destroying political opposition.
  - wolverine876 4y ago
    > You might consider an article criticising this activity as infringing on the sovereignty of the west and others in the pursuit of justice Yes, it reads to me like an implicit justification, an argument that the issues are merely legal, about sovereignty, and not moral and political, an attack on innocent people and on freedom.

potatofarmer45 4y ago

What people don't realize is that extra-judicial "persuasion" is also commonly applied for strategic business interests. I recall a discussion with a someone at an electronics company a while ago where they described recent breaches and leaks of IP to Chinese state companies by unwitting employees pressured by these extra-judicial police.

runnerup 4y ago
nitpick: not sure if those employees would be "unwitting", probably closer to "unwilling" or something along those lines
- prox 4y ago
  Coerced?
BlueTemplar 4y ago
No question that this is a threat, but at this point I also feel compelled to point out that the US(&UK) judiciary has been accused of the same : 1.) https://www.economist.com/business/2019/01/17/how-the-american-takeover-of-a-french-national-champion-became-intertwined-in-a-corruption-investigation https://www.economist.com/business/2019/01/17/how-the-americ... (Notably, some of the most vocal opponents of Macron go as far as to accuse him of treason for personal gain in this case, though their case is IMHO kind of thin.) 2.) https://www.bbc.com/news/business-51277946 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-51277946 Tom Enders, his compliance officer John Harrison, DARPA's & silicon valley's Paul Eremenko and others have been accused of (ab)using this probe with the result that Airbus' strategic information (including business one) became openly accessible to the USA, and through them, to their competitor : Boeing. 3.) Not to be forgotten : https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32542140 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32542140
- ryaniscool 4y ago
  I'm not seeing the similarities to what the parent comment describes. The people accused of participating of wrongdoing in these articles weren't pressured to participate by threats to their families from their "home" government. They did it for personal gain.

AbusiveHNAdmin 4y ago

[flagged]

kataklasm 4y ago
https://archive.is/f2yPr https://archive.is/f2yPr

Broken_Hippo 4y ago

https://archive.is/xv9nV https://archive.is/xv9nV

cm2012 4y ago

China is really terrifying. I watched a video today of them taking pets from people and beating those pets to death as an anti covid measure this year. A billion plus people, largely uneducated, run by a despotic dictator- scary shit.

DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
[flagged]
- tkanarsky 4y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes
  - libraryatnight 4y ago
    Putin really does love that Soviet playbook.
  - DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hypocrisy https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hypocrisy If you're going to condemn an entire country based on local police killing a dog, surely the fact that police in your country frequently beat human beings to death is relevant.
- eptcyka 4y ago
  Has it saved lives?
  - DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
    Yes, undoubtedly. China got through the most difficult part of the pandemic, when there were no vaccines, without letting the virus spread. Over 90% of the Chinese population was fully vaccinated before the zero-CoVID policy was dropped. The biggest failure was that the vaccination rate was lower among the elderly. That's a problem that affects the Chinese cultural sphere, including Taiwan and Singapore.

chloerei 4y ago

[flagged]

markdown 4y ago

I don't know if it's mentioned in this paywalled article, but a few years ago Chinese police came to Fiji and arrested 77 people they claimed were Chinese criminals. They put them on a chartered plane and flew them back to China. Fiji's then government let this happen and even helped them. They were not given their day in (a Fijian) court... simply bundled into a plane and flown away on the say-so of the Chinese. China will pull these stunts elsewhere if they can get away with it. Fiji has a new govt now that wouldn't allow this. Choose good leaders.

yellow_lead 4y ago

> In an article in 2021 two scholars from Jilin University warned that pressure on police to achieve success in the repatriation of fugitives could easily lead to the use of “inappropriate” methods, including “threatening and terrorising” suspects and putting pressure on their relatives. If you owe money or are wanted in China, the government may go after your family to pressure you to return. This pressure can be as extreme as keeping your family members' kids from attending school.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Hounddog11 4y ago
If only this was limited to debtors and criminals. China uses these kind of pressures to suppress political dissent even among Chinese citizens living abroad - for example, Chinese students studying at foreign universities. Here's one account: > [W]hen I was a lecturer it was relatively common to go through an entire semester without a single criticism of the Chinese regime by Chinese students in front of their classmates. Occasionally, a courageous student would privately explain why. Students who voiced objections were monitored by their classmates and denounced to the home government. They in turn had representatives within the student bodies whose job it was to warn students about their activism and remind them of the consequences of dissent. By making sure the students knew they were being watched, the students would self-censor (as a minimum requirement) or defend China in whatever debate was taking place. > In this way, the Chinese students provide something priceless to the cultivation of China’s national image—they make the regime appear to be popular at home. Ask a Chinese student (from the mainland) in public whether or not they approve of Chinese government policies, and you’re likely to get either a nervous and uncertain reply, and possibly a question about why a Westerner cares about Chinese affairs, or you’ll be provided with a vigorous defence of China’s reputation. This isn’t accidental. This is a product of deliberate, well considered policies, crafted by a dictatorship to subvert countervailing foreign policy initiatives. https://archive.is/XucW7 https://archive.is/XucW7
- DiogenesKynikos 4y ago

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 4y ago

Will the evil win in the end? They learned to totally control their populations. AI technology helps a lot with this, unfortunately. So once a country falls into a dictatorship black hole, there seems to be no way back. Will the entire world fall into this, one country after the other?

AbusiveHNAdmin 4y ago

I said PAYWALLED, which was true, and there was no alternate link. Why UP-vote inaccessible content, and then go apeshit when someone points it out? Hacker News is degraded by this infantile, hypocritical behavior. Why perpetuate, let alone PROMOTE it? Downvote the inaccessible CONTENT, not the remark about it. DUH.